Are There Very Few False Allegations of Rape and Child Abuse? [2]

Colm O'Gorman, Executive Director of Amnesty International Ireland

This is a follow up to my original article
Are There Very Few False Allegations of Rape and Child Abuse? [1]
(The first two paragraphs below are adapted from the original article. )

Colm O'Gorman and the Insignificance of False Allegations.

Colm O'Gorman is dismissive of the idea that false allegations of rape or child sex abuse, constitute a significant problem.  He wrote in the Irish Times on 29 March 2006 that:
“In the past few months a number of commentators have suggested that grave injustice is being done to priests falsely accused of child sexual abuse. Such suggestions rightly concern fair minded people, but remarkably, no evidence of any kind has been presented to suggest that false allegations are being made or that the rights of those accused are being abused.”

At the time, Colm O'Gorman was head of the child abuse victims' organisation "One In Four" which he had founded. Two years later, in February 2008 he became Executive Director of Amnesty International Ireland a post he still holds. Evidently Amnesty is in agreement with his views on the non-importance of false allegations!

In response to O'Gorman's March 2006 article,  I wrote a letter to the Irish Times. It wasn't published (I didn't expect it to be) but here it is anyway.

Editor
Irish Times

9 April 2006

Madam,
Writing in the Irish Times on 29 March last, the director of "One in Four" Colm O'Gorman made some remarkable statements in an article headed "There is no evidence to show that the rights of those accused have been abused".

Mr O'Gorman stated: "In the past few months a number of commentators have suggested that grave injustice is being done to priests falsely accused of child sexual abuse. Such suggestions rightly concern fair minded people, but remarkably, no evidence of any kind has been presented to suggest that false allegations are being made or that the rights of those accused are being abused."

Did Mr. O'Gorman never hear of the case of Nora Wall, formerly Sister Dominic of the Sisters of Mercy?  In 1999 she became the first woman in the history of the State to be convicted of raping a child AND the first person to get a life sentence for rape. She was also the first person to be convicted on the basis of "Recovered Memory Syndrome". (This kind of evidence is very rare in Ireland but has a long and infamous history in the USA).

Nora Wall was convicted on the word of two women Regina Walsh and her "witness" Patricia Phelan, BOTH of whom had made a string of allegations against other people (mainly relatives and boyfriends). The case started to collapse when they sold their story to The Star newspaper and one of the men who had been accused by Patricia Phelan read it and contacted Nora Wall's family. In December 2005 in the Court of Criminal Appeal, Patricia Phelan finally confessed publicly that she had lied.

In the same newspaper article Regina Walsh stated that she had also been raped by a "black man in Leicester Square". Again it was the first the Defence had heard of this allegation.

At the trial Regina Walsh claimed that one of the rapes occurred on her 12th birthday. She said that Nora Wall held her down while Pablo McCabe raped her. Pablo McCabe was in Mountjoy Prison on that date!! When this was pointed out to the jury they acquitted the two accused on that charge but convicted them on the other allegations. I believe that the only reason for this incredible decision is that Nora Wall had been a nun.  Does Colm O'Gorman have an alternative explanation?

Mr. O'Gorman might like to look at the Judgement of the Court of Criminal Appeal on the Nora Wall case. It is dated 16 December 2005 and is readily available on the Internet.

But perhaps the Nora Wall case is just an aberration? Consider the following.

There are  wild claims that the Christian Brothers and other religious have murdered up to 'hundreds' of the boys in their care. (For example an interview with Mannix Flynn about Letterfrack Industrial School in the Sunday Independent on 22 December 2002). Gardai at Clifden, Co Galway, investigated claims that there were bodies of boys who had died as a result of foul play buried in the grounds of Letterfrack. Early in 2003, the Gardai reported that they had found no evidence to back this up. Superintendent Tony O'Dowd said: "There was no evidence available that would suggest that foul play led to the deaths of anybody buried inside or outside of the cemetery at the old Industrial School in Letterfrack." He added: "There was no evidence of a mass grave."

Then there was the case of former Letterfrack resident, Willie Delaney. His body was exhumed in April 2001 because of claims that he had died as a result of head wounds inflicted by a Christian Brother. The subsequent autopsy revealed that he had died from natural causes and that there was no evidence of a blow to the head.

The list goes on. Patrick Flaherty, who spent some years in the Holy Family School in Renmore, Co Galway said he made two allegations against members of the Brothers of Charity because of 'false memory syndrome'. He later withdrew the allegations. He has also said that while attending a public meeting of the Laffoy Commission in 2003 he overheard other former residents discussing among themselves whether or not to accuse a particular Brother. Some in the group said the Brother had never abused anyone. Others said he should be accused anyway.

The evidence of Patrick Flaherty was not widely reported in the media (I saw it in the Irish Independent on 1st November 2003 and nowhere else). However as head of "One in Four", surely Colm O'Gorman should be aware of it?

 There is no way that Mr. O'Gorman can have missed the allegations about the "killing" of Willie Delaney. The media screamed obscenities at the Christian Brothers. About 20 April 2001,  Evening Herald posters were all over the streets of Dublin proclaiming "Now it's Murder Enquiry". Then the autopsy report was published and the entire media dropped the story like a shot. Yet this was a Blood Libel against the Christian Brothers which was no different from Nazi Blood Libels about the Jews.

Did Colm O'Gorman have anything to say at the time? Will he say something now? How can he possibly maintain that "no evidence of any kind has been presented to suggest that false allegations are being made or that the rights of those accused are being abused."

Yours etc.

Rory Connor

NOTES:
(1)  I was so sure that the Irish Times would not publish this letter that I sent it to Mr. O'Gorman on the same day saying that I did not expect publication and requesting his comments. Maybe he would care to give them now?

(2) I forgot to include the case of Waterford priest Fr Michael Kennedy. In January 2006 i.e. only two months before O'Gorman's statement, two brothers were convicted of trying to extort money from the priest by threatening to make false allegations of child abuse against him.

Colm O'Gorman and the Catholic Church

There was a discussion on the Politics.ie website in May 2009 at the time Colm O'Gorman published his biography 'Beyond Belief'. Naturally I contributed!

In reply to a comment that "It's hard to be very critical of someone who has suffered like that, even when you disagree on the most basic point, as you always have some sympathy", I wrote

I am not so sure about that. The following is part of an interview Colm O'Gorman did with Emily Hourihane in the Sunday Independent today [10 May 2009] - entitled 'The Man Who Faced His Demons'

In 'Beyond Belief', O'Gorman writes, bleakly, "there were two men living in our village who hurt children ... they raped and abused ... I was one of the children they hurt." When I ask him now how this could have happened, why he was not better protected, he responds, "because I was five at a time when this wasn't possible. It was 1971, child sexual abuse didn't exist. I didn't have anything like the level of understanding to know what was happening to me. And at that age, one of the things I knew was that grown-ups hurt you when you'd been bad. So my experience of adults who hurt me, was that they hurt me if it was my fault." ................

When he was seven or eight, an older boy from the area began abusing Colm, abuse which he was by then tragically inured to "accept as normal". 

And after that there was Father Sean Fortune who was the FOURTH person to abuse him - at the age of 14. Most people's character and personality are well formed by the time they are 14 years old. I do intend to read the book but it seems strange that Sean Fortune and the Catholic Church should be the sole focus of O'Gorman's human right's campaign.

Perhaps it's because of the power of the Church? In an interview with John Spain in the Irish Independent yesterday [9 May 2009] - entitled 'About a Boy' Colm O'Gorman explains:

"You have to remember the social and political power the priests had at the time." In the book he brilliantly describes the flagrant way Fortune would arrive in the house and be feted with food as he waited for Colm. In every house he visited in the area, O'Gorman remembers, people deferred to him and lavished attention on him. His own parents were no different."

But does that explain how two other men - and a youth - were able to abuse him, long before Father Fortune appeared on the scene? Why has O'Gorman's entire career been based on the behaviour of the fourth male to have abused him?

Colm O'Gorman and Fr Sean Fortune

Comment by 'asset test'
Yes it is strange that the other abuse happened also. The fact that O'G doesn't refer to this much is again, because those people did not have a worldwide protectorate around them like the clergy did. Maybe he now sees that as a one off travesty. However the ability of priests in any parish to do the same with impunity was rampant (not all did of course, but could have).
Institutional cover up is probably the reason for his focus on Fortune.

My Reply to 'asset test'
I wish I could be more charitable. The following is from a Profile of Colm O'Gorman that appeared in The Sunday Times on 30 April 2006 - entitled Profile: Champion for the abused valiantly joins political fray - Times Online

It was July 1984 and Colm O’Gorman wanted to tell his sister that he had been sexually abused by Fr Sean Fortune. But the words wouldn’t come. Instead, he told her he was gay and that he had been having an affair with the priest, a monstrous character who eventually committed suicide in 1999 while facing 66 charges of molesting young people.  ......When his sister Barbara tracked him down [in Dublin] in 1984, he had found a job in a restaurant and a place to stay. Even though he couldn’t tell her the truth, just telling someone he was gay helped. He became part of the gay scene in Dublin. Previously, when confused about his sexuality, he had thought of himself as “something sick and wrong and evil”, but now this changed. “I will never forget the first time I walked into a meeting and realised, ‘My God, all these people are like me’,” he has said ........

[In London] Things improved in 1994, after he trained as a physical therapist and, for the first time, began to think deeply about his teenage experience.

Word reached him that Fortune was going to celebrate a family wedding, so he didn’t attend. But the priest, according to his sister, was surrounded at the event by a crowd of teenagers. The news triggered O’Gorman into action. He went home, told his father what had happened, and then walked into Wexford garda station and made a statement in March 1995. That action triggered an investigation into Fortune’s activities and led to the uncovering of the widespread sexual abuse in the diocese of Ferns and elsewhere.

Colm O'Gorman was 18 in 1984. According to this article, he was too ashamed to tell his sister that he had been raped by Father Sean Fortune so instead told her he was gay and had an affair with the priest. Am I the only one to see something strange about that scenario? My suggestion: Colm O'Gorman was gay and had been having an affair with Father Fortune!

When O'Gorman denounced Fr Fortune in 1995, the latter was in no position to tell the Gardai that he had been having a sexual affair with O'Gorman prior to 1984. After all, that would have been statutory rape!

This may also explain why Colm O'Gorman finds it so difficult to acknowledge the fact that false allegations of child abuse are a significant problem in Ireland today.

Colm O'Gorman and the Power of the Catholic Church in 1980s Ireland

I wasn't the only one in the Politics.ie discussion to find something strange about Colm O'Gorman's narrative. The following is a comment by 'Utopian Hermit Monk'

Did anyone else hear the interview with Colm O'Gorman on this morning's Tubridy Show? [12 May 2009]link to audio

I caught the second half in the car, but I've just listened to the whole interview (almost 40 minutes).

I have to say that there is something about his story and/or his way of telling it that leaves me uneasy, because I find it very difficult to believe him. He went into detail about being repeatedly abused by a local old fellow when he was five. In spite of this happening repeatedly and, according to himself, having a devastating effect on him, absolutely nobody seems to have noticed that something was wrong. He explains away his parents' failure to notice anything, but he had five siblings, pals, teachers, etc. Apparently, nobody noticed a change in his personality, signs of depression, terror, confusion, etc.

Then, just three years later, as an 8 year old, he was sexually abused by another local - a teenager this time - and, again, nobody noticed.

Then, when he was 14, he had his first encounter with S. Fortune, who enticed him into bed and abused him, only for C.O'G. (after making a cup of tea for himself) to return to bed and, thereafter, allow Fortune to bully him into continuing the abusive relationship.

Later still, aged 17 and studying hotel management at Cathal Brugha Street, he supplemented his finances by working as a male prostitute (still unaware that he was gay - and this in 1984, not 1948!!).

Repeatedly, Colm depicts himself as lurching between exceptional self-possession (e.g., at 14, he decided to 'take charge' of the relation with Fortune, and even started addressing him as 'John' from the night of their first encounter) and exceptional innocence (in Dublin, several years after the Fortune episode, a man in a public toilet invites him back to his place, and Colm is innocent enough to think that there is nothing sinister about this).

Listening to him, I want to believe his account, but I find it impossible to do so. Even when he describes himself in the present as "a very happy man", I can't believe him. It just doesn't ring true. To me, listening to this interview, he comes across as a troubled individual.

At the end of the interview, I was curious to hear him speaking about himself and his partner having adopted children. Not having read the book, I don't understand the legal status of this adoption, but I would imagine it is unusual in Ireland.

Anyhow, I wish him well.

There followed an exchange of views between 'wexfordman' and 'Utopian Hermit Monk'

Comment by wexfordman

Yes, because in the 70's everyone was an expert in spotting children who were victims of abuse, sure you cold spot them a mile away, thats why we were so quick to react to protect the victims and punish the perpetrators

Reply by 'Utopian Hermit Monk'

wexfordman, I think there is an elaborate mythology about how benighted and innocent Ireland was back in the 70s. I am older than Mr. O'Gorman, and I can assure you that, from an early age, my schoolmates and myself were well able to spot a dodgy teacher, priest, neighbourhood pest (or even older schoolmate!). Any suspicious behaviour did not pass without comment. By the 1970s, Ireland had been well exposed to the 50s/60s 'youth culture' of sex, drugs, rock'n'roll, etc. Whatever about 'the older generation', a more or less normal teenager would have to have been suffering from sensory deprivation not to be aware of the birds and the bees, and most variations of bird/bee behaviour. It was on TV, in cinemas, in song lyrics, books, magazines, etc., etc.

Comment by wexfordman

Of course he allowed him, sure did;nt all 14 year olds know how to tackle yer basic pervert priest in the 80's, it was part of the school curriculum.

Reply by 'Utopian Hermit Monk'

I have seen several photos of Fortune, and I can assure you that if a weird looking creep like that had looked sideways at me when I was 14, I would have been fully aware of the appropriate reaction!

Comment by wexfordman

Ah, I heard differently, perhaps we both need to listen again, cos one of us got it wrong...

Reply by 'Utopian Hermit Monk'
I am listening again, just to be clear. He agrees with Tubridy's depiction of himself as 'a farm boy' (= 'innocent'?) in Dublin. He spent a few weeks with a student friend, freeloading, and then lived on the streets on and off for six months, "either on the streets ... or I'd get picked up". One night he was sleeping in an underground toilet cubicle in O'Connell Street, and a man asked him if he wanted "to do business", and he agreed (to do business) in order to have a place to sleep. He said he never made much money because "I was a bad prostitute", because he had no business sense. Well, my own recollection of coping with student penury is that there was no shortage of ways to earn a little extra income from part time jobs in bars or restaurants, etc. The best source of information on part time work was fellow students. Had Colm O'Gorman's no friends whatsoever at Cathal Brugha Street? Perhaps his book explains why not?

Comment by wexfordman

WITH REGARDS 1984 V 1948, things were not as different as you think, ffs, condoms were still prohibited, never mind homosexuality.

Reply by 'Utopian Hermit Monk'

I beg to differ. I think things were VERY different indeed. For goodness sake, this was 20 years (!) after The Beatles, Stones, Hendrix, Dylan, Late Late Show, etc., etc. By the 1980s, even Ireland had been well exposed to the best and the worst of what the post-60s world had to offer. Even the stuff that was still officially banned was available via late night British TV channels. How anyone could have remained 'sheltered' from all of that is beyond me.

Comment by wexfordman

He has a partner, a family, kids, a home of his own ...

Reply by 'Utopian Hermit Monk'

I just wondered about the legal status of his children. I am not an expert on adoption procedures or criteria in Ireland, but I haven't heard of other legal adoptions by either single men or gay couples.

Comment by wexfordman

... why should he be happy, having come from where he once was....

Reply by 'Utopian Hermit Monk'

I may be mistaken, and I going strictly on the content and tone of that one interview, but his profession of happiness does not ring true for me. My impression (it is no more than that, since I know very little about the man) is of a troubled individual.

Exchange of Views between Myself and 'Wexfordman' during Politics.ie Debate

I had several exchanges with 'wexfordman' and supporters of his during the discussion on Politics.ie - these included a threat of violence by one of the supporters. I reproduce part of the discussion below - but excluding the physical threat. [I also corrected some spelling errors]

Comment by 'wexfordman' on 12 May 2009
No kilbarry, you have said that o'gorman was having an affair with fortune and as such made false allegations against fortune, you further qualified your statement by inferring that that is the reason he has difficulty acknowledging false allegations, by virtue of the fact that he made one himself.

Now apart from the vileness of the suggestion that a 14 yr old is capable of having an affair with an adult in his late 20's or thereabouts, apart from the fact that you claim fortune is guilty of nothing more then than statutory rape, I would suggest you retract it i the interet of the dgds rule!!

My Reply to 'wexfordman'
A 14 year old male is certainly capable of having an affair with an adult - as distinct from being violently raped by an adult - but the actions of the adult are still illegal. The same applies to a 14 year old girl who has consensual sex with a man of 30.  That is why there is an offence of "Statutory Rape" distinct from Rape. A 14 year old is not a helpless infant.

Colm O'Gorman has certainly made a false allegation by stating that "no evidence of any kind has been presented to suggest that false allegations are being made or that the rights of those accused are being abused" and it is NOT a minor issue.

That does not fill me with confidence in relation to other allegations that he has made.

Reply to Me by 'wexfordman' on 12 May 2009
Really, you were in the room, and can verify that he made a false allegation that what heppened to him was against his will ? I think if you beleive he made a false allegation, you should report it to the authorites immediately, you are after all it seems concerned very much with those who do make them, and you have stated as fact that he has done so himself. I suggest you report this to the gardai immediately

Comment by 'wexfordman' on 14 May 2009
Have you reported the false claims you allege cog made re fr fortune to the authorities yet kilbarry?

My Reply to 'wexfordman'
Many people have been found NOT guilty of child abuse by the courts over the past decade and more, but few accusers have been convicted of making false allegations. It is a very difficult thing to prove - unless the accuser actually confesses and maybe not even then. One of the two women who slandered Nora Wall  admitted years later that she had lied and was duly forgiven by the former nun. The Gardai and the DPP took no action against her. (Having prosecuted and jailed Nora, they would have looked a bit foolish going after their own witness.)

Strangely enough (or not so strangely) O'Gorman's organisation "One in Four" was involved in one of the few cases where a false accuser was convicted. This was Paul Anderson convicted in June 2007 of falsely accusing a priest of buggering him while giving him First Communion prayer tuition more than 20 years previously. Anderson had been sponsored by "One in Four".

Comment by 'wexfordman' on 16 May 2009
Kilbarry, why dont you come out from behind the anonymous veil you have and make your allegations against a public figure publicly ?

My Reply to 'wexfordman'
I have discussed this kind of issue in public on other websites and in public fora. However where other parties use aliases, so do I. My letter to the Irish Times (see contribution no 15) was of course sent under my own name. Also I was so convinced that the Times would not publish that I sent it to Colm O'Gorman on the same day (9 April 2006). So he knows my name.

Kevin Myers and the Age of De Valera and McQuaid

John Charles McQuaid and Eamon De Valera

[The following is based on a discussion on the Politics.ie website entitled "Kevin Myers Kills His Own Career" ]

Now that "the tumult and the shouting dies" (sort of) maybe it's time for a summing up. I am combining a couple of previous posts below. In the two original posts,  I was trying to imagine how future historians will report on this episode - and especially how they will report on the behaviour of our beloved Taoiseach and Tanaiste. [Irish Prime Minister and Deputy PM for you foreigners].

Both the Taoiseach and the Tanaiste have said that the Sunday Times have taken the right action in apologising and dropping Kevin Myers following his controversial column on Sunday [30 July 2017].

During their visit to Waterford on Monday, the two government leaders were asked their opinion on Mr Myers's column.

"I read the article and it is misogynistic and anti-Semitic in my view and I think The Sunday Times has taken the appropriate action," Mr Varadkar said.

The Tanaiste Frances Fitzgerald said: "I regret that the article was published, I have to say, in the first place but certainly I think that now the right action has been taken and there’s an onus on everyone, including the media obviously, to make sure that articles like that do not appear."......

Let's suppose that this had happened in the 1950s - that dark and repressive period of our history. The Irish Press publishes an article that some see as critical of the Catholic Church. There is a hysterical outcry that leads to the firing of the journalist and sudden allegations that an article he wrote in the 1940s was ALSO anti-Catholic. Both de Valera and Sean Lemass join in denouncing the journalist and Lemass explicitly states that all such articles should be banned in future.

But in fact the journalist is a practising Catholic, the article is NOT anti-clerical and Archbishop McQuaid has to make a public statement pointing this out!

Can you imagine what our historians- and journalists - would be writing about this episode today?

My Further Comment
The above analogy isn't enough to convey the lunacy and hypocrisy that constitutes "debate" in modern Ireland. The Jewish Representative Council of Ireland has  supported Kevin Myers. If a similar episode had happened in the 1950s, you would have to imagine that even AFTER John Charles declared that the journalist was NOT anti-Catholic, the hysterical loonies went ahead and wrecked the guy's career anyway!

Still Later Comment

I have previously quoted the imbecilic remarks of our beloved Taoiseach and Tanaiste on the necessity of censoring the evil ideas of Kevin Myers. I was somewhat surprised because both are Fine Gael, but former Tanaiste Joan Burton doesn't surprise me at all:

Sunday Times' probe into How Myers Article was Published 

..... Meanwhile, former tánaiste [Deputy PM] Joan Burton has said newspaper editors need to ensure articles which are grossly prejudicial to women should never be published. Ms Burton welcomed Mr Myers's apology, but said steps should be taken to ensure similar pieces are not published in future. "Gross prejudice against women should have no place in modern journalism and it is an editor's responsibility to ensure the kind of prejudice we've seen this week doesn't happen again," she said.....

This is PRECISELY what I would expect of a Labour Party Female Politician,  but the fact that Fine Gael beat her to it is genuinely troubling.

FINAL Comment:
I summed up at one point by writing: "I just re-located the FINAL part of my analogy of the 1950s in which I imagine Leo Varadkar and Frances Fitzgerald as de Valera and Lemass, the Jewish Representative Council of Ireland as John Charles McQuaid and Kevin Myers as a hapless Catholic traditionalist who is being denounced by the mob as an Enemy of the Church. The difference nowadays is that the mob are so out of control that even the Archbishop can't stop them!"

Will any of the foregoing personnel who are still among the living, be pleased with the role I have allocated them in this little parable? Well hopefully not; it's intended as a tribute to the deceased anyway!

Comment July 2018 - But maybe he is a “misogynist??
But is Kevin Myers a “misogynist”?  When Nora Wall was falsely convicted of rape and sentenced to life imprisonment, Kevin Myers was the ONLY journalist to speak out on her behalf.  However according to the Wikipedia article on Nora Wall “The director of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre, Olive Braiden, welcomed the imposition of a maximum sentence, and said it would ensure that Nora Wall would be monitored for the rest of her life to prevent recurrence.”.......No comment from Ms Braiden after the case against Nora Wall collapsed.

 Being opposed to THAT kind of Feminism does not make anyone a “misogynist”! 

Comment 19 November 2019

RTE Apologises to Journalist Kevin Myers for 'Untrue and Defamatory' Claim he was a 'Holocaust Denier' Irish Independent 19 November 2019

RTE has issued an on-air apology to journalist Kevin Myers as part of an out-of-court settlement reached between himself and the State broadcaster. Mr Myers had launched a defamation suit against RTE after it described him as a 'holocaust denier' during a broadcast on its flagship news and current affairs show 'Morning Ireland' in July, 2017.

As part of the undisclosed settlement, newsreader Bryan Dobson read out the apology just before the 9am news on Morning Ireland today.

He stated: "Morning Ireland introduced an item that suggested that Kevin Myers was a holocaust denier. This was untrue and defamatory of Mr Myer's character. Morning Ireland acknowledges that Mr Myers has, for over three decades, repeatedly testified to the scale and wickedness of Hitler's Final Solution. Morning Ireland acknowledges the damage done to Mr Myer's reputation. We regret this and unreservedly apologise."

A statement from Mr Myer's solicitor Eamonn Denieffe this afternoon said: " On behalf of our client, Mr Kevin Myers, we wish to confirm that a satisfactory settlement has been reached with RTE in relation to a broadcast on 'Morning Ireland' on July 31, 2017. This broadcast resulted in an action for defamation against RTE which has now been settled. This settlement includes a broadcast apology, an acknowledgment of factual errors that resulted in reputational harm to Mr Myers, the payment of damages and his legal costs.”

Mr Myers declined to comment as did RTE.

The settlement follows a ruling by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland in February, 2018 which upheld a complaint from a member of the public that RTE's depiction of Mr Myers as a holocaust denier was "unfair."

 

MY CONCLUSION [December 2020]

In July 2017 journalist Kevin Myers was libelled by our Irish Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister, a previous Deputy Prime Minister AND by State Broadcaster RTE. It's a series of events unprecedented in the history of the Irish State, of the EU and probably of any democratic society!

Kevin Myers is the only journalist to have defended former Sister of Mercy Nora Wall in June 1999 when she was falsely convicted of raping a child.*** He is also a strong critic of the Provisional IRA whose political wing Sinn Fein are currently (December 2020) the main opposition party and are likely to come to power after the next Irish General Election. We are a society that is spewing on itself!

*** In contrast, our last EU Commissioner Phil Hogan and last Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan both used Parliamentary Privilege to libel Nora.

 

See also articles Kevin Myers and J.K. Rowling; Kevin Myers, Vanessa Feltz and Anti-Semitism; and  Kevin Myers, Jews and False Allegations of Anti-Semitism

Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan and Former FG Chair Phil Hogan Vs George Hook and Nora Wall

Minister for Justice and Equality Charlie Flanagan

Former Chairman of Fine Gael Phil Hogan (now EU Commissioner for Agriculture)

FINAL (?) SUMMARY: Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan, Nora Wall and George Hook [1]

Is this thread [on Politics.ie] coming to an end? Rather than let it go quietly into the night let's try for a final summary. My own summary relates to

(1) Minister for Justice and Equality  Charlie Flanagan
(2) Feminist activist Fiona Doyle AND
(3) Fintan O'Toole

all of whom have condemned George Hook and ALL of whom have made far more outrageous statements in the past and got away scot-free. I have recently referred to Fiona Doyle and Fintan O'Toole but my several comments on our beloved Minister for Justice are about 3,000 posts ago. However I have summarised them in three articles on my blog and here is the first article

For convenience I am including a passage from the above-mentioned article. I am quoting our current Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan speaking in the Dail on 8 July 2009 during the debate on the Institutional Abuse Bill. At the time Charlie Flanagan was an ordinary Fine Gael TD but subsequently became Minister for Children(!) and then Foreign Affairs before receiving the Justice and Equality portfolio.

........."While I do not have time to speak in detail about the Louise O’Keeffe case, I wish to speak about another woman, namely, Nora Wall. Nora Wall has hardly been mentioned in the debate on the Ryan report. She became something of a heroine for those who mistrust the Irish courts when her conviction for rape was overturned in 1999. Since her conviction was overturned, she has been portrayed as an heroic martyr in many quarters with references to witch hunts and witch trials abounding. Six weeks ago, the columnist Kevin Myers wrote in a national newspaper:

 'The liberal-left lynch mob that went after poor Nora Wall a decade ago was prepared to destroy her life on the basis of lies.'

 "Mr. Myers would do well to read the description of “poor Nora Wall” in the Ryan report. Nora Wall does not deserve the plaudits that have been directed her way since her conviction for rape was overturned. While her case may have collapsed, the Ryan report reveals graphically that Nora Wall was no saint. She exposed the children in her care to unacceptable risks by allowing male outsiders to stay overnight at the Cappoquin care centre which was in her charge. She entertained past pupils and student priests in the home and allowed them to stay overnight. A witness stated that much drinking took place at these gatherings.

"There is more to this than meets the eye in respect of these social events. It has been suggested that there were frequent visits to the Cappoquin home by some clergy from Mount Melleray Abbey. Access to children may have been a key motivation for these visits. One must bear in mind that Mount Melleray was selected by the notorious paedophile, Fr. Brendan Smith, as a holiday destination or as a haven to which to escape when he was on the run from the authorities in Northern Ireland. This issue must be revisited" [My emphasis]

. 

FINAL (?) SUMMARY: Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan, Nora Wall and George Hook [2]

So Charlie Flanagan - as a TD in 2009 - repeated the kind of lie about Nora Wall, for which she had received a libel settlement from the Sunday World several years before. It is possible that Charlie Flanagan TD did not know about the libel case as it was ignored by almost all of the Irish media (Phoenix Magazine was the only exception I think). But he certainly did know that a TD cannot be sued for what he says in the Dail!

Subsequent to this atrocious allegation Charlie Flanagan became Minister for Children, Minister for Foreign Affairs and is now Minister for Justice and Equality. Was George Hook's offence worse than Charlie Flanagan's??

Reply To Me by'Owedtojoy'

Of course it was not worse.  But that does not put George Hook in the right. Setting up dozens of fake "What abouts" is a bizarre defence. Multiple wrongs do not make something right, though it might help with the context. Flanagan wrong does not equal Hook right.

I support investigation of all past paedophilia accusations, but I also think Hook's remarks were unacceptable for a professional broadcaster.

I am glad he has not been fired, and hope that when he returns to the airwaves, he is chastened and more balanced in his discourse on sensitive subjects.

My Reply to 'Owedtojoy' (regarding Phil Hogan)

I could indeed have set up dozens of "what-abouts" and they would not have been fake. The "context" that you mention is vital and not just a side issue as you seem to suggest. It is clear that people who are regarded as Politically Correct will be allowed to get away with any kind of lunatic lie whereas persons regarded as right-wing will be savagely criticised and hounded from their jobs.

In my Blog article and above I mentioned that Charlie Flanagan was the SECOND politician to slander Nora Wall. I didn't go into detail about the first because I am not aware that he denounced George Hook. However you can read all about him here - Irish Times article on 25 April 2002

"TD Cites Retired Official in Child Sex Abuse Allegations"

It was then Chairman of Fine Gael Phil Hogan TD and his allegations involved a paedophile ring, convicted murderer Malcolm McArthur, an unnamed senior official in Dept of Education as well as Nora Wall. Also children being tortured and forced to have sex with animals. Extremely lurid stuff - even more so than Charlie Flanagan in 2009 BUT Phil Hogan is not Minister for Justice and Equality today and I don't think he denounced George Hook. (Perhaps as European Commissioner for Agriculture he doesn't see any political advantage in so doing?)

Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan, Phil Hogan and Nora Wall

The allegations made by Charlie Flanagan and Phil Hogan are also discussed on the Nora Wall thread
on  Politics.ie

Incidentally Nora Wall successfully sued the Sunday World for similar atrocious allegations. She succeeded in her claim for an apology and damages in October 2002. This was 6 months AFTER Phil Hogan's Dail allegations.

However even if she had succeeded 6 months before, I don't suppose it would have made any difference. Phil Hogan knew he could not be sued for anything he said in the Dail!

Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan and Former FG Chair Phil Hogan
Well this thread seems to have reached a conclusion now and I have done a final (?) summary on my Blog. [I am referring to this article!]

Let us suppose that during the 1950s, these kind of obscene allegations had been directed by senior members of Fianna Fail against a Protestant or Jewish woman. We would be hearing about it still with journalists claiming that they revealed the truly fascistic character of "The Age of de Valera" (and of his friend John Charles McQuaid). The claims  were in fact made by members of Fine Gael in 2002 and 2009 - respectively
(a) the then Chairman of the Fine Gael party (and current EU Commissioner for Agriculture) AND
(b) the man who is currently Minister for Justice and Equality (!!)

The allegations have been ignored by the media - no calls for an investigation of the criminal accusations OR of the people who made them.

So does this tell us anything about the nature of Fine Gael today or of modern Ireland?

Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan, George Hook and Nora Wall [3]

Minister for Justice and Equality (!)  Charlie Flanagan

Further comments by me on the antics of Charlie Flanagan - on the Politics.ie discussion about George Hook

(A)

Comment by an innocent abroad; Clayton Hotels announces termination of Newstalk sponsorship over George Hook's rape comments           Oh dear..

Comment by Toland; Not that surprising!

Incredible. We have a Justice Minister who - as a TD - publicised an obscene libel about a woman. The woman had previously received libel damages from the Sunday World over a similar allegation. Did the then Charlie Flanagan TD not know this in 2009 - or did he just go ahead anyway in the knowledge that he could not be sued for comments he made in the Dail??

Previous comment by Kilbarry1     When our Minister for Justice could - as a TD - repeat obscene lies against a woman, lies for which the woman had already received damages from a newspaper then this present controversy is a storm in a teacup. What right has Charlie Flanagan to denounce George Hook? Were Hook's comments more serious than his own? Were they more disrespectful to women than Flanagan's own false allegations against Nora Wall?

I know that no company can withdraw sponsorship from the Department of Justice. However surely Charlie Flanagan should be asked either to apologise or justify his allegations?

(B)

Comment by DaveM; And if you're his boss (and remember this is commercial radio) this sure as hell isn't welcome news... Hotel group cancels Newstalk sponsorship over Hook rape comments  Not so easy to find a new sponsor on the same kind of terms when the first reporting of the news sponsorship deal is bound to include reference to Hook's comments on rape.

Look a TD can repeat** obscene lies about a woman in the Dail in 2009 and successively become Minister for Children, Minister for Foreign Affairs and NOW Minister for Justice.  So what's the big problem here?
** I say "repeat" because the Sunday World had been obliged to apologise and pay damages to Nora Wall several years previously!

Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan, George Hook and Nora Wall [2]

Minister for Justice and Equality (!) Charlie Flanagan

A few more extracts from the discussion on Politics.ie. I am replying to two  comments by "ShoutingIsLeadership" and "StopDoingStuff"

(A) Original comment by  ShoutingIsLeadership;
It seems that George Hook made some comments on air, which have resulted in him being accused of blaming a rape victim.  It seems that he said that the person who raped her is a scumbag , but he also discussed "responsibility of women".

Fellow Newstalker, Chris Donoghue, has tweeted that "someone needs to go to town on hook. It's disgusting." Donoghue recently got removed from his radio show and replaced by Ivan Yates, and now has a different role at Newstalk.
Who is right? Is either?

Update - audio available, below. About 8 or so minutes in...


Reply by Kilbarry1
See my previous two posts
When our Minister for Justice could - as a TD - repeat obscene lies against a woman, lies for which the woman had already received damages from a newspaper then this present controversy is a storm in a teacup. What right has Charlie Flanagan to denounce George Hook? Were Hook's comments more serious than his own? Were they more disrespectful to women than Flanagan's own false allegations against Nora Wall?

Of course then Deputy Flanagan made his claims in Dail Eireann so that he could not be sued. Is this supposed to be a mitigating factor?  

(B) Original comment by stopdoingstuff;
Anyway, apologize for what? George Hook should basically tell people to shut the fk up and stop pretending to be offended in order to get some attention. If a woman gets raped and she is in that position due to being stupid, then she is responsible in the same was as I would be responsible if I kept 50 grand is cash in my house and went around telling everyone about it. It doesn't absolve the thief or legitimatize robbery, it does not promote robbery-culture, and no one would be helped by saying "Teach thieves not to rob". One can be responsible for something in more than one sense of the word, but of course the feminist and manginas know this but would prefer to go for a few headlines. Fk them- they are spastics. No one should put up with these attention whores or their Ronaldo-style debating tactics.

Reply by Kilbarry1
That should be self-evident but it's a good idea to make the point using an example that has nothing at all to do with sex. Otherwise the feminazis are liable to call you a Rape Apologist!

Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan, George Hook and Nora Wall [1]

Minister for Justice and Equality (!) Charlie Flanagan

I posted a number of times on this issue on the Politics.ie website. These are my first  two posts.

Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan has condemned George Hook, called his comments "dangerous and disrespectful and said they should be withdrawn.  This is what Charlie Flanagan had to say in 2009 about a former nun Nora Wall who was falsely accused of raping a child. In 2016 when I quoted his words, Flanagan was Minister for Foreign Affairs and had previously been Minister for Children! I am quoting from a thread on Nora Wall

QUOTE
The SECOND politician who slandered Nora Wall is Charles Flanagan, also Fine Gael, also a man who has held ministerial posts (currently Minister for Foreign Affairs and previously Minister for Children)! This is part of what he said on 8 July 2009 during the debate on the Institutional Abuse Bill

While I do not have time to speak in detail about the Louise O’Keeffe case, I wish to speak about another woman, namely, Nora Wall. Nora Wall has hardly been mentioned in the debate on the Ryan report. She became something of a heroine for those who mistrust the Irish courts when her conviction for rape was overturned in 1999. Since her conviction was overturned, she has been portrayed as an heroic martyr in many quarters with references to witch hunts and witch trials abounding. Six weeks ago, the columnist Kevin Myers wrote in a national newspaper:

"The liberal-left lynch mob that went after poor Nora Wall a decade ago was prepared to destroy her life on the basis of lies."

Mr. Myers would do well to read the description of “poor Nora Wall” in the Ryan report. Nora Wall does not deserve the plaudits that have been directed her way since her conviction for rape was overturned. While her case may have collapsed, the Ryan report reveals graphically that Nora Wall was no saint. She exposed the children in her care to unacceptable risks by allowing male outsiders to stay overnight at the Cappoquin care centre which was in her charge. She entertained past pupils and student priests in the home and allowed them to stay overnight. A witness stated that much drinking took place at these gatherings.

There is more to this than meets the eye in respect of these social events. It has been suggested that there were frequent visits to the Cappoquin home by some clergy from Mount Melleray Abbey. Access to children may have been a key motivation for these visits. One must bear in mind that Mount Melleray was selected by the notorious paedophile, Fr. Brendan Smith, as a holiday destination or as a haven to which to escape when he was on the run from the authorities in Northern Ireland. This issue must be revisited.
ENDOFQUOTE

NOTE today 10/09/17
Do you think that Justice Minister Flanagan should be asked to withdraw his comments or else resign? Do you think a man like that has any right to condemn George Hook?

Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan, George Hook and Nora Wall (b)

The media don't seem to have done much to follow up on the then Deputy Flanagan's sensational allegations in 2009. They just reported them (I don't think you can be sued for libel for just reporting what was said in the Dail.) The reason our journalists did not ELABORATE on Flanagan's obscene claims is that Nora Wall had already successfully sued the Sunday World for publishing similar claims. This is another extract from the thread on Nora Wall  

Updated Link to Politics.ie thread: Nora Wall Claims Damages against State for False Rape Conviction [page 4] 

QUOTE
In other words Flanagan repeated the libel published by the Sunday World in 1999 for what they had to apologise and pay damages to Nora Wall in 2002. Details of the libel and the Sunday Wurst apology (reported in Phoenix Magazine) are here  

and to give an example of the nature of the article

Rape Nun's Abuse Pact with Smyth

Exclusive by PAUL WILLIAMS

EVIL NUN Nora Wall, convicted for helping to rape a ten-year-old child, also secretly provided children for sick paedophile priest Father Brendan Smyth.

The Sunday World has learned that depraved cleric regularly visited St. Michael's Childcare Centre in County Waterford where Wall, then known as Sister Dominic, was working.  Last month Wall was the first woman to be convicted of rape in Ireland .......

The conviction of Nora Wall (and Pablo McCabe) in 1999 quickly collapsed when their two accusers gave an interview to the Daily Star who published their names for the first time and it quickly became apparent that the two accusers were serial rape liars. (One of their previous victims read the Star article and contacted Nora Wall's family.) HOWEVER the allegation made by the Sunday World - about her supplying children to Fr Brendan Smyth did NOT figure in her trial i.e. the Sunday World just invented it on the basis that a person convicted of rape could not sue for libel. (They were then caught out when the conviction collapsed.)

So where did our current Minister for Foreign Affairs (and past Minister for Children) get his information? "It has been suggested" he said in the Dail. WHO suggested it apart from the Sunday World? Did Charlie Flanagan repeat this claim outside of the Dail? Did he go to the Gardai and demand an investigation? If not why not?
ENDOFQUOTE

CURRENT COMMENT: As Flanagan is now Minister for Justice  the above question is even more relevant than when he was a mere TD or even Minister for Foreign Affairs!