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Pope Pius XII and Adolf Hitler |
The following are extracts from a discussion on the Politics.ie website on the topic of Child Abuse, the Nazis and the Catholic Church. The name of the topic may appear to be strange but in fact Nazi Germany in the 1930s made allegations of child abuse a major theme of their propaganda against the Catholic Church in Germany.
Quotations are from Richard Evans, "The Third Reich in Power", Michael Burleigh, "Sacred Causes
: Religion and Politics from the European Dictators to Al Qaeda" AND from the man himself "Hitler's Table Talk" as noted mainly by Martin Bormann.
Among other things, I was debating with a contributor, "LongLiberal" who described the Catholic Church as "this Nazi, pedophile infested, backward, evil and ridiculous organisation". I pointed out that apart from the word "Nazi", his description could have come straight out of Julius Streicher's anti-Semitic rants in Der Sturmer. Streicher also accused the Jews of murdering children - allegations that were identical to those made by Irish journalists (and at least one politician) against Catholic priests, nuns and brothers. Anyway my discussion with this particular "liberal" concluded as follows:
Regarding your quotations from "Mein Kamph" and Hitler's public speeches, do you understand that the book "Hitler's Table Talk" consists of officially recorded notes of his private conversations with his confidantes at the dinner table during the years 1941 - 44. (Martin Bormann was one of the note-takers.) These represent proof of Hitler's REAL views. Regarding his PUBLIC statements - he made an awful lot about his desire for peace; do you believe those?
Politics.ie History Forum: "Nazis, The Catholic Church and Sexual Abuse"
Nazis, the Catholic
Church and sexual abuse.
First of all it is clear that the Catholics (and the Catholic Centre Party) were regarded after the Communists and Socialists as the main opposition and the main targets of bringing the whole of German society under totalitarian control. One third of Catholic priests were imprisoned by the regime.
What is also interesting is that the main propaganda instrument used against the Catholic Church was allegations of child abuse. As we know such things did take place in other jurisdictions and no doubt in Germany as well, but the allegations were grossly exaggerated in order to justify the repression.
Are there parallels in this country? Are the instances of child sexual abuse by Catholic clerics which appear to be no higher than among any other cohort of the population being used as the basis for removing its influence from education and other spheres of life?
For comparative purposes, the Nazis themselves already had highly abusive institutions within their own apparatus. There were several rapes and murders of members of the Hitler Youth on camps during their campaign against the CC.
It was also shown that half of girls fostered in Sweden in the 1950s and 60s were abused and there are over half a million cases of children believed to be at risk reported in Britain every year.
So is the concentration on the Catholic Church ideologically driven? And if so for what purpose?
Quotations are from Richard Evans, "The Third Reich in Power", Michael Burleigh, "Sacred Causes
: Religion and Politics from the European Dictators to Al Qaeda" AND from the man himself "Hitler's Table Talk" as noted mainly by Martin Bormann.
Regarding your quotations from "Mein Kamph" and Hitler's public speeches, do you understand that the book "Hitler's Table Talk" consists of officially recorded notes of his private conversations with his confidantes at the dinner table during the years 1941 - 44. (Martin Bormann was one of the note-takers.) These represent proof of Hitler's REAL views. Regarding his PUBLIC statements - he made an awful lot about his desire for peace; do you believe those?
Rory Connor
2 August 2016
Seanie Lemass
Nazis, the Catholic
Church and sexual abuse.
Was reading
Richard Evans The Third Reich
in Power which has
interesting material on how the Nazis treated the Catholic Church.
First of all it is clear that the Catholics (and the Catholic Centre Party) were regarded after the Communists and Socialists as the main opposition and the main targets of bringing the whole of German society under totalitarian control. One third of Catholic priests were imprisoned by the regime.
What is also interesting is that the main propaganda instrument used against the Catholic Church was allegations of child abuse. As we know such things did take place in other jurisdictions and no doubt in Germany as well, but the allegations were grossly exaggerated in order to justify the repression.
Are there parallels in this country? Are the instances of child sexual abuse by Catholic clerics which appear to be no higher than among any other cohort of the population being used as the basis for removing its influence from education and other spheres of life?
For comparative purposes, the Nazis themselves already had highly abusive institutions within their own apparatus. There were several rapes and murders of members of the Hitler Youth on camps during their campaign against the CC.
It was also shown that half of girls fostered in Sweden in the 1950s and 60s were abused and there are over half a million cases of children believed to be at risk reported in Britain every year.
So is the concentration on the Catholic Church ideologically driven? And if so for what purpose?
Child Abuse, the Nazis
and the Catholic Church
The following is
from a previous post of mine on the History Forum
Nazis vs Catholic paedophiles
CHILD ABUSE, THE NAZIS AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
The following is an extract from Michael Burleigh's book 'Sacred Causes: Religion and Politics from the European Dictators to Al Qaeda'. Burleigh is a leading historian who has taught at Oxford, the London School of Economics etc. His book explores the attitude of the churches to totalitarian dictatorships and the attitude of such dictators as Hitler and Stalin to the Catholic Church in particular.
"[In Nazi Germany in the 1930s] the state used various forms of chicanery to close Catholic homes and institutions. These ranged from adversely changing their charitable tax status to using the Gestapo to suborn children to make accusations of sexual abuse against those in charge of them.
"Between September 1933 and March 1937 [the Vatican] secretary of State Pacelli signed over 70 notes and memoranda protesting against Nazi violations of the Concordat [1]. The Nazis almost immediately began chipping away at the autonomy of Catholic lay organisations which had apparently been secured by the Concordat..........
"In the mid-1930s these various measures were given a more vicious accent by Government sponsored campaigns involving those old standbys of money and sex. ......Well publicised investigations into these currency violations in turn triggered denunciation of the Catholic clergy for mostly homosexual but also paedophile offences. Between May 1936 and July 1937 there were 270 prosecutions of such men, of whom 170 monks and 64 priests were convicted. A major trial was held in Koblenz in May 1936 which resulted in the conviction of past and present members of a lay nursing order, most of the evidence coming from a former member of the order who had joined the SD [SS Security Service]. The intervening Olympic Games led Hitler to drop further trials, which were resumed with a vengeance after Pius XI's encyclical 'Mit Brennender Sorge' was released in early 1937.
Hitler immediately the Ministry of Justice to give priority to these 'morality trials'. The Ministry of Propaganda urged the press to treat these trials as evidence of pervasive perversity within the Catholic Church. The press, and caricaturists in particular, had a field day with illicit intimacies in the confessionals or tubby monks whose capacious cassocks concealed several pairs of dainty feet. That summer Nazi publications also attacked secretary of state Pacelli, accusing him of using a visit to Liseux in France to organise the 'moral encirclement' of Germany with the aid of 'friends' in the French Communist Party who were shown holding his cloak. [2] ......
"Tendentious reporting [3] of a small number of sex crimes (involving mainly lay staff) in Catholic boarding schools or religious houses enabled members of the Government to claim that the Catholic Church was awash with sex fiends. There were few holds barred in gathering the evidence, which involved the SD and Gestapo interviewing disgruntled religious drop-outs, ex-pupils and orphans, with offers of sweets alternating with a head bashed into a wall or the threat of concentration camp to secure the appropriate testimony. On this basis minister for the Churches Kerrl could claim that 7,000 clergy had been convicted of sex crimes between 1933 and 1937, whereas the true figure seems to have been 170, of whom many had left the religious life prior to their convictions. The deliberate inflation of statistics was a favoured Nazi device for ramping up hysteria [3], as they would do in 1939 when they turned 5,000 ethnic German victims of the Poles whose country the Nazis had invaded into '50,000'. There was no reporting of similar sexual transgressions involving members of Nazi formations."
The above extract is from Chapter 3, sub-section 111 of Burleigh's book, the part entitled 'The Catholic Church and German National Socialism'.
Notes:
[1] This is Eugenio Pacelli, who became Pope Pius XII in 1939. According to John Cornwell (and other 'liberal' commentators) he was 'Hitler's Pope'. (Cornwell's book of that name was published in 2000).
[2] So the Nazis accused the future Pope Pius XII of being a friend of Communists whereas 'liberals' accuse him of being soft on Nazis! I recall that George Orwell once said that Nazis and Communists have more in common with each other than either has with a democrat!
[3] Regarding "tendentious reporting" and "ramping up hysteria" the following quotation from Hermann Kelly's book 'Kathy's Real Story' is relevant. The author is talking about the use of the term 'paedophile priest' by the media in Ireland.
"According to Michael J. Breen (Studies Autumn 2000) this phrase was used 332 times in The Irish Times between August 1993 and August 2000. The 'paedophile priest' term comes up 265 times in The Irish Times archive between January 1996 - August 2007, yet the terms 'paedophile farmer', 'paedophile lawyer', 'paedophile teacher' or 'paedophile journalist' never occurs." (page 148/149).
As per George Orwell, The Irish Times has more in common with Nazi propagandists than it has with the Catholic Church ......
Nazis vs Catholic paedophiles
CHILD ABUSE, THE NAZIS AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
The following is an extract from Michael Burleigh's book 'Sacred Causes: Religion and Politics from the European Dictators to Al Qaeda'. Burleigh is a leading historian who has taught at Oxford, the London School of Economics etc. His book explores the attitude of the churches to totalitarian dictatorships and the attitude of such dictators as Hitler and Stalin to the Catholic Church in particular.
"[In Nazi Germany in the 1930s] the state used various forms of chicanery to close Catholic homes and institutions. These ranged from adversely changing their charitable tax status to using the Gestapo to suborn children to make accusations of sexual abuse against those in charge of them.
"Between September 1933 and March 1937 [the Vatican] secretary of State Pacelli signed over 70 notes and memoranda protesting against Nazi violations of the Concordat [1]. The Nazis almost immediately began chipping away at the autonomy of Catholic lay organisations which had apparently been secured by the Concordat..........
"In the mid-1930s these various measures were given a more vicious accent by Government sponsored campaigns involving those old standbys of money and sex. ......Well publicised investigations into these currency violations in turn triggered denunciation of the Catholic clergy for mostly homosexual but also paedophile offences. Between May 1936 and July 1937 there were 270 prosecutions of such men, of whom 170 monks and 64 priests were convicted. A major trial was held in Koblenz in May 1936 which resulted in the conviction of past and present members of a lay nursing order, most of the evidence coming from a former member of the order who had joined the SD [SS Security Service]. The intervening Olympic Games led Hitler to drop further trials, which were resumed with a vengeance after Pius XI's encyclical 'Mit Brennender Sorge' was released in early 1937.
Hitler immediately the Ministry of Justice to give priority to these 'morality trials'. The Ministry of Propaganda urged the press to treat these trials as evidence of pervasive perversity within the Catholic Church. The press, and caricaturists in particular, had a field day with illicit intimacies in the confessionals or tubby monks whose capacious cassocks concealed several pairs of dainty feet. That summer Nazi publications also attacked secretary of state Pacelli, accusing him of using a visit to Liseux in France to organise the 'moral encirclement' of Germany with the aid of 'friends' in the French Communist Party who were shown holding his cloak. [2] ......
"Tendentious reporting [3] of a small number of sex crimes (involving mainly lay staff) in Catholic boarding schools or religious houses enabled members of the Government to claim that the Catholic Church was awash with sex fiends. There were few holds barred in gathering the evidence, which involved the SD and Gestapo interviewing disgruntled religious drop-outs, ex-pupils and orphans, with offers of sweets alternating with a head bashed into a wall or the threat of concentration camp to secure the appropriate testimony. On this basis minister for the Churches Kerrl could claim that 7,000 clergy had been convicted of sex crimes between 1933 and 1937, whereas the true figure seems to have been 170, of whom many had left the religious life prior to their convictions. The deliberate inflation of statistics was a favoured Nazi device for ramping up hysteria [3], as they would do in 1939 when they turned 5,000 ethnic German victims of the Poles whose country the Nazis had invaded into '50,000'. There was no reporting of similar sexual transgressions involving members of Nazi formations."
The above extract is from Chapter 3, sub-section 111 of Burleigh's book, the part entitled 'The Catholic Church and German National Socialism'.
Notes:
[1] This is Eugenio Pacelli, who became Pope Pius XII in 1939. According to John Cornwell (and other 'liberal' commentators) he was 'Hitler's Pope'. (Cornwell's book of that name was published in 2000).
[2] So the Nazis accused the future Pope Pius XII of being a friend of Communists whereas 'liberals' accuse him of being soft on Nazis! I recall that George Orwell once said that Nazis and Communists have more in common with each other than either has with a democrat!
[3] Regarding "tendentious reporting" and "ramping up hysteria" the following quotation from Hermann Kelly's book 'Kathy's Real Story' is relevant. The author is talking about the use of the term 'paedophile priest' by the media in Ireland.
"According to Michael J. Breen (Studies Autumn 2000) this phrase was used 332 times in The Irish Times between August 1993 and August 2000. The 'paedophile priest' term comes up 265 times in The Irish Times archive between January 1996 - August 2007, yet the terms 'paedophile farmer', 'paedophile lawyer', 'paedophile teacher' or 'paedophile journalist' never occurs." (page 148/149).
As per George Orwell, The Irish Times has more in common with Nazi propagandists than it has with the Catholic Church ......
Goebbels and the
Pedophile Priests Operation
I'm heading out
now but my comment above on the old thread was a response to the following
comment by "Brenny"
QUOTE:
I thought this might be of interest to anyone curious about the history of child abuse in Catholic Europe. Many have wondered if and when did anyone ever try to tackle the problem in the past. Was any government ever virtuous enough to face down the power of the Catholic Church over this issue?
Well it seems there was, the good old National Socialists of 1930s Germany. [My emphasis]The author of the following article attacks the old master of propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, but the whole article itself is tinged with propaganda and spin and seeks to subtly equate opponents of the church with nazism. At the same time many members of the German clergy were strong opponents of the nazis and that is pointed out here and should be acknowledged, but many will feel that Pope Pius was not as opposed to Nazism as he could and should have been.
Goebbels and the pedophile priests operation, by Massimo Introvigne
In 1937 the Nazi propaganda minister organized a campaign to discredit the Catholic Church in response to the encyclical ‘Mit brennender Sorge.’ The head of the German military’s counter-espionage unit, Wilhelm Canaris, passed the documents to Pius XII.
“There are cases of sexual abuse that come to light every day against a large number of members of the Catholic clergy. Unfortunately it’s not a matter of individual cases, but a collective moral crisis that perhaps the cultural history of humanity has never before known with such a frightening and disconcerting dimension. Numerous priests and religious have confessed. There’s no doubt that the thousands of cases which have come to the attention of the justice system represent only a small fraction of the true total, given that many molesters have been covered and hidden by the hierarchy.”
An editorial from a great secular newspaper in 2010? No: It’s a speech of May 28, 1937, by Joseph Goebbels (1897-1945), Minister of Propaganda for the Third Reich. This speech, which had a large international echo, was the apex of a campaign launched by the Nazi regime to discredit the Catholic Church by involving it in a scandal of pedophile priests.
Two hundred and seventy-six religious and forty-nine diocesan priests were arrested in 1937. The arrests took place in all the German dioceses, in order to keep the scandals on the front pages of the newspapers.
ENDOFQUOTE
QUOTE:
I thought this might be of interest to anyone curious about the history of child abuse in Catholic Europe. Many have wondered if and when did anyone ever try to tackle the problem in the past. Was any government ever virtuous enough to face down the power of the Catholic Church over this issue?
Well it seems there was, the good old National Socialists of 1930s Germany. [My emphasis]The author of the following article attacks the old master of propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, but the whole article itself is tinged with propaganda and spin and seeks to subtly equate opponents of the church with nazism. At the same time many members of the German clergy were strong opponents of the nazis and that is pointed out here and should be acknowledged, but many will feel that Pope Pius was not as opposed to Nazism as he could and should have been.
Goebbels and the pedophile priests operation, by Massimo Introvigne
In 1937 the Nazi propaganda minister organized a campaign to discredit the Catholic Church in response to the encyclical ‘Mit brennender Sorge.’ The head of the German military’s counter-espionage unit, Wilhelm Canaris, passed the documents to Pius XII.
“There are cases of sexual abuse that come to light every day against a large number of members of the Catholic clergy. Unfortunately it’s not a matter of individual cases, but a collective moral crisis that perhaps the cultural history of humanity has never before known with such a frightening and disconcerting dimension. Numerous priests and religious have confessed. There’s no doubt that the thousands of cases which have come to the attention of the justice system represent only a small fraction of the true total, given that many molesters have been covered and hidden by the hierarchy.”
An editorial from a great secular newspaper in 2010? No: It’s a speech of May 28, 1937, by Joseph Goebbels (1897-1945), Minister of Propaganda for the Third Reich. This speech, which had a large international echo, was the apex of a campaign launched by the Nazi regime to discredit the Catholic Church by involving it in a scandal of pedophile priests.
Two hundred and seventy-six religious and forty-nine diocesan priests were arrested in 1937. The arrests took place in all the German dioceses, in order to keep the scandals on the front pages of the newspapers.
ENDOFQUOTE
Originally
Posted by Seanie Lemass 
Was reading Richard Evans The Third Reich in Power which has interesting material on
how the Nazis treated the Catholic Church.
First of all it is clear that the Catholics (and the Catholic Centre Party) were regarded after the Communists and Socialists as the main opposition and the main targets of bringing the whole of German society under totalitarian control. One third of Catholic priests were imprisoned by the regime.
What is also interesting is that the main propaganda instrument used against the Catholic Church was allegations of child abuse. As we know such things did take place in other jurisdictions and no doubt in Germany as well, but the allegations were grossly exaggerated in order to justify the repression.
Are there parallels in this country? Are the instances of child sexual abuse by Catholic clerics which appear to be no higher than among any other cohort of the population being used as the basis for removing its influence from education and other spheres of life?
For comparative purposes, the Nazis themselves already had highly abusive institutions within their own apparatus. There were several rapes and murders of members of the Hitler Youth on camps during their campaign against the CC.
It was also shown that half of girls fostered in Sweden in the 1950s and 60s were abused and there are over half a million cases of children believed to be at risk reported in Britain every year.
So is the concentration on the Catholic Church ideologically driven? And if so for what purpose?
First of all it is clear that the Catholics (and the Catholic Centre Party) were regarded after the Communists and Socialists as the main opposition and the main targets of bringing the whole of German society under totalitarian control. One third of Catholic priests were imprisoned by the regime.
What is also interesting is that the main propaganda instrument used against the Catholic Church was allegations of child abuse. As we know such things did take place in other jurisdictions and no doubt in Germany as well, but the allegations were grossly exaggerated in order to justify the repression.
Are there parallels in this country? Are the instances of child sexual abuse by Catholic clerics which appear to be no higher than among any other cohort of the population being used as the basis for removing its influence from education and other spheres of life?
For comparative purposes, the Nazis themselves already had highly abusive institutions within their own apparatus. There were several rapes and murders of members of the Hitler Youth on camps during their campaign against the CC.
It was also shown that half of girls fostered in Sweden in the 1950s and 60s were abused and there are over half a million cases of children believed to be at risk reported in Britain every year.
So is the concentration on the Catholic Church ideologically driven? And if so for what purpose?
Godwin’s in the
first post? Well to continue the theme been a member of the hilter youth didn’t
effect a certain Roman Catholics cleric’s career…
Nec Aspera Terrent..Is
Tuaisceart-Éireannach mé. Má tá meas agat ar mo chultúr, beidh meas agam ar do
chultúr.
Originally
Posted by Seanie Lemass
You are missing the point. It is in the
history forum as there is a valid comparison in my opinion to be made between
the manner in which the Nazis exagerrated the extent of Catholic clercial abuse
and the manner in which a similar exagerration of recent abuse has been used as
a stick with which to beat it. Both ideologically motivated.
That is not to excuse the abuse of children by Catholic clerics which like all such abuse by whoever is inexcusable.
Liberator_Rev, I take it that is your own anti-Papist website you refer to! Himmler as a Catholic??? Eh. I don't think so. Perhaps you ought to read the biography someone references above. I also note that your section on the Inquisition relieson 19th century anti catholic historians rather than primary research based studies which undermine the myths about that episode in history.
That is not to excuse the abuse of children by Catholic clerics which like all such abuse by whoever is inexcusable.
Liberator_Rev, I take it that is your own anti-Papist website you refer to! Himmler as a Catholic??? Eh. I don't think so. Perhaps you ought to read the biography someone references above. I also note that your section on the Inquisition relieson 19th century anti catholic historians rather than primary research based studies which undermine the myths about that episode in history.
Yes they treated
the Catholic church so badly that the same Catholic church saw fit to assist
wanted SS members to escape via a well established and and well used escape
route.
Liberator_Rev likes this.
Originally
Posted by Seanie Lemass
Was reading Richard Evans The Third Reich in Power which has interesting material on
how the Nazis treated the Catholic Church.
First of all it is clear that the Catholics (and the Catholic Centre Party) were regarded after the Communists and Socialists as the main opposition and the main targets of bringing the whole of German society under totalitarian control. One third of Catholic priests were imprisoned by the regime.
What is also interesting is that the main propaganda instrument used against the Catholic Church was allegations of child abuse. As we know such things did take place in other jurisdictions and no doubt in Germany as well, but the allegations were grossly exaggerated in order to justify the repression.
Are there parallels in this country? Are the instances of child sexual abuse by Catholic clerics which appear to be no higher than among any other cohort of the population being used as the basis for removing its influence from education and other spheres of life?
For comparative purposes, the Nazis themselves already had highly abusive institutions within their own apparatus. There were several rapes and murders of members of the Hitler Youth on camps during their campaign against the CC.
It was also shown that half of girls fostered in Sweden in the 1950s and 60s were abused and there are over half a million cases of children believed to be at risk reported in Britain every year.
So is the concentration on the Catholic Church ideologically driven? And if so for what purpose?
First of all it is clear that the Catholics (and the Catholic Centre Party) were regarded after the Communists and Socialists as the main opposition and the main targets of bringing the whole of German society under totalitarian control. One third of Catholic priests were imprisoned by the regime.
What is also interesting is that the main propaganda instrument used against the Catholic Church was allegations of child abuse. As we know such things did take place in other jurisdictions and no doubt in Germany as well, but the allegations were grossly exaggerated in order to justify the repression.
Are there parallels in this country? Are the instances of child sexual abuse by Catholic clerics which appear to be no higher than among any other cohort of the population being used as the basis for removing its influence from education and other spheres of life?
For comparative purposes, the Nazis themselves already had highly abusive institutions within their own apparatus. There were several rapes and murders of members of the Hitler Youth on camps during their campaign against the CC.
It was also shown that half of girls fostered in Sweden in the 1950s and 60s were abused and there are over half a million cases of children believed to be at risk reported in Britain every year.
So is the concentration on the Catholic Church ideologically driven? And if so for what purpose?
Are there parallels in this country?
Simply, no.
There are no parallels in this country. One aspect is talking about 1930's Germany and the other is 21st century Ireland. You seem to be trying to push some sort of idea that the Catholic Church were in opposition to Hitlers Nazi regime, which is simply laughable.
Firstly, the Vatican kept very very quiet during the Holocaust, why is that?
Hitler himself was a Roman Catholic and often throughout Mein Kampf spoke about "doing god's work". He was baptised and never renounced his baptism. All soldiers in the SS would place three fingers in their belt to signify the Holy Trinity.
Also, and most significantly the Cardinal Arch-Bishop of Munich, Adolf Bertram, held a special mass in 1939, when Hitler escaped assassination, to celebrate "the fortunate release of the Fuhrer".
What is also interesting is that the main propaganda instrument used against the Catholic Church was allegations of child abuse. As we know such things did take place
in other jurisdictions and no doubt in Germany as well, but the allegations
were grossly exaggerated in
order to justify the repression
It is this kind of sickening comment that do the Catholic Church
no favors at all. In modern day Ireland for example all the religous hacks in
the media do the Church more damage than good when they spout this nonsensical
drivel. David Quinn, John Waters, Breda O'Brien and clearly yourself, just dont
seem to get it.
You come with comments that the scale of abuse in the Church was no more widespread in than other aspect of Society, as if that some how minimizes the despair inflicted on its victims.
The reason why abuse in the Church is so controversial is because of its standing in Irish Society for so long and the trust that people placed in that organisation to protect their children and contribute to their upbringing.
The real controversy is not in the abuse itself but more of the covering up of that abuse all the way up to the Pope himself. Their total disregard for innocent children, the interest on the protection of their own majesty and outright refusal to this day to issue a straight apology from the top down.
Bishop Driarmuid Martin, gets it. He gets that what the Church is guilty of is simply inexcusable and has also completely rejected the claim made by yourself that there is anti-catholic, so-called propaganda in the media. You should take a leaf out of his book and accept the abuse in the Church for what it is, abhorrent. But if course you want to still play the victim and blame everybody else. Blame society, blame the media, blame satan, hell blame the victims but just dont blame yourself.
So is the concentration on the Catholic
Church ideologically driven? And if so for what purpose?
That is a
pathetic question to put to any rational thinking person. For reasons, see
above.
Last edited by
LongLiberal; 6th January 2012 at 09:28 PM.
Originally
Posted by Cato
It wasn't David Quinn who claimed that. It
came from a survey that the Iona Institute had carried
out by Amarach Research. It found that the average estimate of the number of
priests involved in child abuse was 28%, while the real figure, going from an
American study, is around 4%.
Is the figure of 4% greater or lesser than the rate for the general population?
Is the figure of 4% greater or lesser than the rate for the general population?
David Quinn and
the Iona Institute's assertion are more or less the same thing.
I remember listening to Quinn and Patsy Mc Garry on the Pat Kenny show and, Quinn conceded that the survey was very deliberate in its timing i.e straight after the Cloyne Report and also that the survey itself asked "completely open ended questions".
I hope Quinn needs plenty of toilet paper, because thats about all that survey is good for his wiping ass.
I remember listening to Quinn and Patsy Mc Garry on the Pat Kenny show and, Quinn conceded that the survey was very deliberate in its timing i.e straight after the Cloyne Report and also that the survey itself asked "completely open ended questions".
I hope Quinn needs plenty of toilet paper, because thats about all that survey is good for his wiping ass.
Liberator_Rev likes this.
5
Catholic politiicians
who had disagreements with the hierarchy - imagine that!
Seanie Lemass
says:
"Liberator_Rev, I take it that is your
own anti-Papist website you refer to! Himmler as a Catholic??? Eh. I don't
think so. Perhaps you ought to read the biography someone references
above."
I know that for
unquestioning Catholics like yourself, Seanie, calling my site
"anti-Papist" is enough to dismiss all the historical evidence I have
assembled there to support my conclusions. The same goes for your "I don't
think so" response. That IN YOUR MIND proves that anything said that you
don't agree with is ipso facto WRONG.
The way I found out that most of the leaders of the Nazi regime were Roman Catholics was by researching their individual histories on the web. I understand why their church can run far enough from these Roman Catholics NOW. But the time their church should have told the world that the Church repudiated everything these "Catholics" stood for was WHEN THEY WERE IN POWER, not AFTER THEY WERE LONG GONE!
As for Himmler, my site doesn't claim that he and the many other Nazi leaders were MODEL Catholics. All I claim is that they lived and died for the most part as Catholic politiicians who had disagreements with the hierarchy - imagine that! - The Catholic Church has had a tool for telling its members and the world about unfit members who should be shunned. It had reasons for not using excommunication on the Nazis, not EXCUSES, but shameful "reasons".
This blog won't allow me to post links, but here's an example of what you WON'T FIND on Catholic web sites about H H :
"The Himmler family had always been devout and faithful Catholics, especially the young Heinrich whose participation in the mass was very much it seems a spiritual experience for him.
When he was nineteen years old he would confide in his diary: "Come what may. I shall always love God, shall pray to him and shall remain faithful to the Catholic Church and shall defend it even if I should be expelled from it." (He was never excommunicated.)
Later as a practicing national socialist he would order the murder of priests, nuns, monks and others and later advocate the public execution of the pope. He also instructed a senior SS officer to furnish plans to kidnap the pope (neither happened of course.)
Himmler certainly may have eventually displaced his religious devotion from Catholicism to National Socialism but he would certainly be influenced by the ritualism of that church."
Hallo everybody!
I've read all the posts in this thread and would like to express my opinion.
In 2009 the "Pave the Way Foundation" found out that German Catholic bishops had excommunicated the nazist party since 1930.
I've read all the posts in this thread and would like to express my opinion.
In 2009 the "Pave the Way Foundation" found out that German Catholic bishops had excommunicated the nazist party since 1930.
The first was the bishop Magonza following those of Munich, Colon and others.
No catholic was allowed to subscribe nazist party and no nazist was allowed to take part to Catholic funerals or get the communion.
Then Goering was sent to Rome to protest but the secretary of the Vatican, the future Pope Pacelli refused to meet him, so Goering was received by Pizzardo, but his requests were rejected.
When in 1932 Hitler got the power, German bishops protested, but in vain.
Originally
Posted by Liberator_Rev
As for Himmler, my site doesn't claim that he
and the many other Nazi leaders were MODEL Catholics. All I claim is that they
lived and died for the most part as Catholic politiicians who had disagreements
with the hierarchy - imagine that! - The Catholic Church has had a tool for
telling its members and the world about unfit members who should be shunned. It
had reasons for not using excommunication on the Nazis, not EXCUSES, but
shameful "reasons".
This blog won't allow me to post links, but here's an example of what you WON'T FIND on Catholic web sites about H H :
"The Himmler family had always been devout and faithful Catholics, especially the young Heinrich whose participation in the mass was very much it seems a spiritual experience for him.
When he was nineteen years old he would confide in his diary: "Come what may. I shall always love God, shall pray to him and shall remain faithful to the Catholic Church and shall defend it even if I should be expelled from it." (He was never excommunicated.)
Later as a practicing national socialist he would order the murder of priests, nuns, monks and others and later advocate the public execution of the pope. He also instructed a senior SS officer to furnish plans to kidnap the pope (neither happened of course.)
Himmler certainly may have eventually displaced his religious devotion from Catholicism to National Socialism but he would certainly be influenced by the ritualism of that church."
This blog won't allow me to post links, but here's an example of what you WON'T FIND on Catholic web sites about H H :
"The Himmler family had always been devout and faithful Catholics, especially the young Heinrich whose participation in the mass was very much it seems a spiritual experience for him.
When he was nineteen years old he would confide in his diary: "Come what may. I shall always love God, shall pray to him and shall remain faithful to the Catholic Church and shall defend it even if I should be expelled from it." (He was never excommunicated.)
Later as a practicing national socialist he would order the murder of priests, nuns, monks and others and later advocate the public execution of the pope. He also instructed a senior SS officer to furnish plans to kidnap the pope (neither happened of course.)
Himmler certainly may have eventually displaced his religious devotion from Catholicism to National Socialism but he would certainly be influenced by the ritualism of that church."
You seem to be
contradicting yourself wholesale.
You say Himmler advocated the public exection of the Pope and ordered the deaths of priests monks and nuns and yet you try to claim he was some kind of faithful Catholic.
Of course he may have been influenced by Catholicism as a young man but it seems clear he was an apostate in later life
You say Himmler advocated the public exection of the Pope and ordered the deaths of priests monks and nuns and yet you try to claim he was some kind of faithful Catholic.
Of course he may have been influenced by Catholicism as a young man but it seems clear he was an apostate in later life
Parentheses, you
are a riot!
You accuse ME of
You accuse ME of
Originally
Posted by parentheses
You seem to be contradicting yourself
wholesale. (i.e.)
You say Himmler advocated the public exection of the Pope and ordered the deaths of priests monks and nuns (in his later life) and yet you try to claim he was some kind of faithful Catholic (in his early life).
You say Himmler advocated the public exection of the Pope and ordered the deaths of priests monks and nuns (in his later life) and yet you try to claim he was some kind of faithful Catholic (in his early life).
First of all, I
didn't say that the link was to MY OWN SITE, and those were not my own words.
But even if they were, why do you charge the author of "contradicting yourself
wholesale" and you then
proceed to make the very same
point made by that author? i.e.
Originally
Posted by parentheses
Of course he may have been influenced by Catholicism
as a young man but it seems clear he was an apostate in later life.
Why is it a
contradiction if OTHERS make that point, but not if YOU do it?
Last edited by
Liberator_Rev; 7th January 2012 at 10:56 PM.
Originally
Posted by Chiara
In 2009 the "Pave the Way Foundation" found out that German Catholic bishops had excommunicated the nazist party since 1930.
The first was the bishop Magonza following those of Munich, Colon and others.
No catholic was allowed to subscribe nazist party and no nazist was allowed to take part to Catholic funerals or get the communion.
Then Goering was sent to Rome to protest but the secretary of the Vatican, the future Pope Pacelli refused to meet him, so Goering was received by Pizzardo, but his requests were rejected.
When in 1932 Hitler got the power, German bishops protested, but in vain.
Originally
Posted by Chiara
Originally
Posted by Chiara
Every scholar in this area knows that "the German Catholic bishops had excommunicated the nazist party" but they also know that it wasn't "since 1930". It was from 1930 only to 1933, when the Nazi ceased being a potentialthreat and became an actual threat.
When the Nazis actually came to power in early 1933, the R.C. church's leaders made peace "with the Devil". They stopped forbiding the faithful from joining the Nazi Party, they gave in to Hitler's demands that they disband their "Centre Party" - one of the last obstacles in Hitler's path to absolute dictatorial power -, and they signed the Condordat of 1933, whose crown jewel for Hitler (in my estimation) was Article 16, which read:
For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, busy with this very thing. Pay to all what is due them--taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. "
Originally
Posted by Liberator_Rev
Regarding the other points, I've already expressed my opinion in the above post.
Catholic church was involved with nazism of course, but for the majority of them it was the lesser evil.
Originally
Posted by LongLiberal
There are no parallels in this country. One aspect is talking about 1930's Germany and the other is 21st century Ireland. You seem to be trying to push some sort of idea that the Catholic Church were in opposition to Hitlers Nazi regime, which is simply laughable.
Firstly, the Vatican kept very very quiet during the Holocaust, why is that?
Hitler himself was a Roman Catholic and often throughout Mein Kampf spoke about "doing god's work". He was baptised and never renounced his baptism. All soldiers in the SS would place three fingers in their belt to signify the Holy Trinity.
Also, and most significantly the Cardinal Arch-Bishop of Munich, Adolf Bertram, held a special mass in 1939, when Hitler escaped assassination, to celebrate "the fortunate release of the Fuhrer". ......
Vatican Concordats
Originally
Posted by between the bridges
There were 18.9 million people of the eligable age to join the HJ when the Pope did. 18.7 million of them did. Now, think about that. You reckon they were all enthusiasts? Do you understand anything about totalitarianism?
Originally
Posted by Chiara
And they built the autobanhen!
·
Thread Tools
Originally
Posted by Seanie Lemass
Originally
Posted by LongLiberal
Child Killing
Allegations by Anti-Clerics: Nazis and "Lliberals"
Child Killing
Allegations by Anti-Clerics: Nazis and "Lliberals"
Originally
Posted by Kilbarry1
Originally
Posted by Kilbarry1
Originally
Posted by Kilbarry1
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1
Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1
Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5
What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8
Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1
In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11
In a public address in Munich -
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."
Stuttgart address February 15th 1933 -
"Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany’s fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity"
Originally
Posted by Kilbarry1
Anti-Clericalism and
Anti-Semitism
Originally
Posted by LongLiberal
Regarding your quotations from "Mein Kamph" and Hitler's public speeches, do you understand that the book "Hitler's Table Talk" consists of officially recorded notes of his private conversations with his confidantes at the dinner table during the years 1941 - 44. (Martin Bormann was one of the note-takers.) These represent proof of Hitler's REAL views. Regarding his PUBLIC statements - he made an awful lot about his desire for peace; do you believe those?
Cruimh
Originally
Posted by Chiara
Hallo everybody!
I've read all the posts in this thread and would like to express my opinion.
I've read all the posts in this thread and would like to express my opinion.
In 2009 the "Pave the Way Foundation" found out that German Catholic bishops had excommunicated the nazist party since 1930.
The first was the bishop Magonza following those of Munich, Colon and others.
No catholic was allowed to subscribe nazist party and no nazist was allowed to take part to Catholic funerals or get the communion.
Then Goering was sent to Rome to protest but the secretary of the Vatican, the future Pope Pacelli refused to meet him, so Goering was received by Pizzardo, but his requests were rejected.
When in 1932 Hitler got the power, German bishops protested, but in vain.
Most odd then
that the Vatican signed the Reichskonkordat in 1933
Chiara
Yes, maybe odd,
it depends on the point of views. After the concordat, Pope Pacelli said to a
British embassador that he had to chose between an agreement or the complete
elimination of the German Catholic Church. The following are his own words:
"I had to chose between being just hanged (concordat) or being hanged,
disembowelled, quartered (no concordat).
Cruimh
Originally
Posted by Chiara
Yes, maybe odd, it depends on the point of
views. After the concordat, Pope Pacelli said to a British embassador that he
had to chose between an agreement or the complete elimination of the German
Catholic Church. The following are his own words: "I had to chose between
being just hanged (concordat) or being hanged, disembowelled, quartered (no
concordat).
On the other hand :
Link
Link
It was a marriage of
convenience between Hitler and the Vatican, one which disenfranchised the
Catholic laymen. As Hitler cynically put it:
"We should trap the priests by their
notorious greed and self indulgence. We shall thus be able to settle everything
with them in perfect peace and harmony. I shall give them a few years'
reprieve. Why should we quarrel? They will swallow anything in order to keep
their material advantages. Matters will never come to a head. They will
recognize a firm will, and we need only show them once or twice who is master.
They will know which way the wind blows." [Quoted in Guenter Lewy,The
Catholic Church and Nazi Germany (2000),
pp. 25-26]
Liberator_Rev
Originally
Posted by Chiara
In 2009 the "Pave the Way
Foundation" found out that German Catholic bishops had excommunicated the
nazist party since 1930.
This
"foundation" is nothing but one
Jewish businessman and his wife posing
as experts in the history of the Roman Cathoilic Church's role in the Jewish
Holocaust, and the quote above is a great illustration of how incompetent they
are.
Every scholar in this area knows that "the German Catholic bishops had excommunicated the nazist party" but they also know that it wasn't "since 1930". It was from 1930 only to 1933, when the Nazi ceased being a potentialthreat and became an actual threat.
When the Nazis actually came to power in early 1933, the R.C. church's leaders made peace "with the Devil". They stopped forbiding the faithful from joining the Nazi Party, they gave in to Hitler's demands that they disband their "Centre Party" - one of the last obstacles in Hitler's path to absolute dictatorial power -, and they signed the Condordat of 1933, whose crown jewel for Hitler (in my estimation) was Article 16, which read:
Before bishops take possession of their
dioceses they are to take an oath of fealty either to the Reich Representative
of the State concerned, or to the President of the Reich, according to the
following formula: "Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and
promise as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State of . . . I swear and
promise to honor the legally constituted Government and to cause the clergy of
my diocese to honor it. In the performance of my spiritual office and in my
solicitude for the welfare and the interests of the German Reich, I will
endeavor to avoid all detrimental acts which might endanger it."
From that point
on, how could any R.C. bishop or priest in Nazi Germany resist the Nazi
government, when they had vowed to God not to do so?
P.S. Both Catholic clergy and the Nazi government also invoked "the Word of God" to require obedience to the government, in the form of "St. Paul" who directed "people of faith" as follows in his Epistle to the Romans 13:1-7:
P.S. Both Catholic clergy and the Nazi government also invoked "the Word of God" to require obedience to the government, in the form of "St. Paul" who directed "people of faith" as follows in his Epistle to the Romans 13:1-7:
"Let every person be subject to the
governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those
authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists
authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur
judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish
to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive
its approval; for it is God's servant for your good. But if you do what is
wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain!
It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must
be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience.
For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, busy with this very thing. Pay to all what is due them--taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. "
Chiara
Yes, in my
opinion, Hitler wasn't completely wrong. Unfortuantely a lot of priests cared
and still care more to keep self advantages. The question is if the greedy ones
were (and are) more than the good ones, I hope not.
Regarding the Pope, nowadays, at last, public opinion recognizes that he was a much better person than he was thought to be.
P.S. Hope I made myself understood in the last sentence. Got some problems wuth my English.
Regarding the Pope, nowadays, at last, public opinion recognizes that he was a much better person than he was thought to be.
P.S. Hope I made myself understood in the last sentence. Got some problems wuth my English.
Chiara
Originally
Posted by Liberator_Rev
This "foudnation" is nothing but
one Jewish businessman and his wife posing as experts in the history of the
Roman Cathoilic Church's role in the Jewish Holocaust, and the quote above is a
great illustration of how incompetent they are.
Every scholar in this area knows that "the German Catholic bishops had excommunicated the nazist party" but they also know that it wasn't "since 1930". It was from 1930 only to 1933 when the Nazi ceased being a potential threat and became an actual threat. When the Nazis actually came to power, the R.C. church's leaders made peace "with the Devil". They stopped forbiding the faithful from joining the Nazi Party, they gave in to Hitler's demands that they disband their "Centre Party" - one of the last obstacles in Hitler's path to absolute dictatorial power -, and they signed the Condordat of 1933, whose crown jewel for Hitler (in my estimation) was Article 16, which read:
From that point on, how could any R.C. bishop or priest in Nazi Germany resist the Nazi government, when they had vowed to God not to do so?
P.S. Both Catholic clergy and the Nazi government also invoked "the Word of God" to require obedience to the government, in the form of "St. Paul" who directed "people of faith" as follows in Ch. 13 of his Epistle to the Romans 13:1-7:
Every scholar in this area knows that "the German Catholic bishops had excommunicated the nazist party" but they also know that it wasn't "since 1930". It was from 1930 only to 1933 when the Nazi ceased being a potential threat and became an actual threat. When the Nazis actually came to power, the R.C. church's leaders made peace "with the Devil". They stopped forbiding the faithful from joining the Nazi Party, they gave in to Hitler's demands that they disband their "Centre Party" - one of the last obstacles in Hitler's path to absolute dictatorial power -, and they signed the Condordat of 1933, whose crown jewel for Hitler (in my estimation) was Article 16, which read:
From that point on, how could any R.C. bishop or priest in Nazi Germany resist the Nazi government, when they had vowed to God not to do so?
P.S. Both Catholic clergy and the Nazi government also invoked "the Word of God" to require obedience to the government, in the form of "St. Paul" who directed "people of faith" as follows in Ch. 13 of his Epistle to the Romans 13:1-7:
Yes, you're
right. But I meant that this organization found the written documents about
excommunication..at least it's my information.
Regarding the other points, I've already expressed my opinion in the above post.
Catholic church was involved with nazism of course, but for the majority of them it was the lesser evil.
Kilbarry1
Originally
Posted by LongLiberal
Simply, no.
There are no parallels in this country. One aspect is talking about 1930's Germany and the other is 21st century Ireland. You seem to be trying to push some sort of idea that the Catholic Church were in opposition to Hitlers Nazi regime, which is simply laughable.
Firstly, the Vatican kept very very quiet during the Holocaust, why is that?
Hitler himself was a Roman Catholic and often throughout Mein Kampf spoke about "doing god's work". He was baptised and never renounced his baptism. All soldiers in the SS would place three fingers in their belt to signify the Holy Trinity.
Also, and most significantly the Cardinal Arch-Bishop of Munich, Adolf Bertram, held a special mass in 1939, when Hitler escaped assassination, to celebrate "the fortunate release of the Fuhrer". ......
Do you even read
previous posts. I quote from no 61
"Tendentious reporting [3] of a small number of sex crimes (involving mainly lay staff) in Catholic boarding schools or religious houses enabled members of the Government to claim that the Catholic Church was awash with sex fiends. There were few holds barred in gathering the evidence, which involved the SD and Gestapo interviewing disgruntled religious drop-outs, ex-pupils and orphans, with offers of sweets alternating with a head bashed into a wall or the threat of concentration camp to secure the appropriate testimony. On this basis minister for the Churches Kerrl could claim that 7,000 clergy had been convicted of sex crimes between 1933 and 1937, whereas the true figure seems to have been 170, of whom many had left the religious life prior to their convictions. The deliberate inflation of statistics was a favoured Nazi device for ramping up hysteria [3], as they would do in 1939 when they turned 5,000 ethnic German victims of the Poles whose country the Nazis had invaded into '50,000'. There was no reporting of similar sexual transgressions involving members of Nazi formations."
The above extract is from Chapter 3, sub-section 111 of Burleigh's book, the part entitled 'The Catholic Church and German National Socialism'.
Notes:
.......
[2] So the Nazis accused the future Pope Pius XII of being a friend of Communists whereas 'liberals' accuse him of being soft on Nazis! I recall that George Orwell once said that Nazis and Communists have more in common with each other than either has with a democrat!
[3] Regarding "tendentious reporting" and "ramping up hysteria" the following quotation from Hermann Kelly's book 'Kathy's Real Story' is relevant. The author is talking about the use of the term 'paedophile priest' by the media in Ireland.
"According to Michael J. Breen (Studies Autumn 2000) this phrase was used 332 times in The Irish Times between August 1993 and August 2000. The 'paedophile priest' term comes up 265 times in The Irish Times archive between January 1996 - August 2007, yet the terms 'paedophile farmer', 'paedophile lawyer', 'paedophile teacher' or 'paedophile journalist' never occurs." (page 148/149).
As per George Orwell, The Irish Times has more in common with Nazi propagandists than it has with the Catholic Church ......
You do understand that in Nazi Germany and in modern Ireland, people who hated the Catholic Church invented and/or grossly exaggerated allegations of child abuse in order to discredit the Church? If you care to investigate a bit further you will also find that these false allegations included allegations of child murder. For example try Googling the phrases "Murder of the Undead" or "Victimless Murders" for allegations that the Christian Brothers murdered boys in their care. (The Nazi pornographer Julius Streicher made comparable claims about the Jews murdering Christian children.)
"Tendentious reporting [3] of a small number of sex crimes (involving mainly lay staff) in Catholic boarding schools or religious houses enabled members of the Government to claim that the Catholic Church was awash with sex fiends. There were few holds barred in gathering the evidence, which involved the SD and Gestapo interviewing disgruntled religious drop-outs, ex-pupils and orphans, with offers of sweets alternating with a head bashed into a wall or the threat of concentration camp to secure the appropriate testimony. On this basis minister for the Churches Kerrl could claim that 7,000 clergy had been convicted of sex crimes between 1933 and 1937, whereas the true figure seems to have been 170, of whom many had left the religious life prior to their convictions. The deliberate inflation of statistics was a favoured Nazi device for ramping up hysteria [3], as they would do in 1939 when they turned 5,000 ethnic German victims of the Poles whose country the Nazis had invaded into '50,000'. There was no reporting of similar sexual transgressions involving members of Nazi formations."
The above extract is from Chapter 3, sub-section 111 of Burleigh's book, the part entitled 'The Catholic Church and German National Socialism'.
Notes:
.......
[2] So the Nazis accused the future Pope Pius XII of being a friend of Communists whereas 'liberals' accuse him of being soft on Nazis! I recall that George Orwell once said that Nazis and Communists have more in common with each other than either has with a democrat!
[3] Regarding "tendentious reporting" and "ramping up hysteria" the following quotation from Hermann Kelly's book 'Kathy's Real Story' is relevant. The author is talking about the use of the term 'paedophile priest' by the media in Ireland.
"According to Michael J. Breen (Studies Autumn 2000) this phrase was used 332 times in The Irish Times between August 1993 and August 2000. The 'paedophile priest' term comes up 265 times in The Irish Times archive between January 1996 - August 2007, yet the terms 'paedophile farmer', 'paedophile lawyer', 'paedophile teacher' or 'paedophile journalist' never occurs." (page 148/149).
As per George Orwell, The Irish Times has more in common with Nazi propagandists than it has with the Catholic Church ......
You do understand that in Nazi Germany and in modern Ireland, people who hated the Catholic Church invented and/or grossly exaggerated allegations of child abuse in order to discredit the Church? If you care to investigate a bit further you will also find that these false allegations included allegations of child murder. For example try Googling the phrases "Murder of the Undead" or "Victimless Murders" for allegations that the Christian Brothers murdered boys in their care. (The Nazi pornographer Julius Streicher made comparable claims about the Jews murdering Christian children.)
Kilbarry1
Vatican Concordats
While I'm at it,
the following quotation from Burleigh's book concerns the attempts of two
future popes - Pius XI (Achille Ratti) and Pius XII (Eugenio Pacelli) to
negotiate a Concordat with the Soviet Union in the 1920s. It throws an interesting light on the frequent denunciations of
the Vatican concordat with Nazi Germany in 1933.
Vatican concordats with governments do not imply approval of the governments. Of course there is a danger that a vicious dictatorship will use the agreement in order to boost its international standing - and that is precisely what the Soviet government was trying to do in the early 1920s. Indeed negotiations with the Vatican broke down because several governments - including both Britain and fascist Italy(!) - recognised the Soviet Union in 1924 and the Soviets no longer needed an agreement with the Vatican. However the future Pope Pius XII continued to negotiate even "when the execution in Leningrad of a Polish Catholic priest complicated matters" !!
.... Both nuncios, Ratti in Warsaw and the younger Pacelli in Munich (until 1925, when he moved to Berlin as nuncio to the German Reich), were closely involved in Rome's diplomatic initiatives with the Soviets. The Vatican initially welcomed the fall of the Romanovs, believing that this would herald a new era of freedom and opportunity for the Roman Catholic Church in the debris of the Tsarist Empire. Benedict XV employed Ratti to contact Lenin on behalf of persecuted Catholic and Orthodox clergy.
In late 1921, the Vatican offered the Soviet Union humanitarian assistance hurriedly incorporating a broader secret agreement which, capitalising on the disarray of the Orthodox Church would - they imagined - have enhanced Roman Catholic activities in Russia. The aid was provided but the wider agreement remained a dead letter. Assisted by the German Government which saw relations with Russia as a means of terminating Germany's pariah status, the archbishop of Genoa held talks with the Soviet foreign affairs commisar Chicherin on board an Italian cruiser with a view to negotiating a concordat. A further series of meetings took place at Rapallo, based on Vatican calls for freedom of conscience and Soviet demands for diplomatic recognition. Effortlessly overcoming the extreme distaste for German (Jewish) Bolsheviks that he is alleged to have expressed in 1919, Pacelli met Maxim Litvinov, the Soviet Union's (Jewish) foreign minister, at the Berlin villa of the brother of the German ambassador to Moscow.
When Mussolini recognised the Soviet Union on 8 February 1924, and was quickly followed by, among others, Britain, Norway, Austria, Greece and Sweden, the Soviets ceased to regard negotiations with the Vatican as important except for the question of aid. Pacelli continued to negotiate with the Soviets in Berlin until mid-August 1925 when the execution in Leningrad of a Polish Catholic priest complicated matters. However he met Chicherin twice in 1925 and 1927, discovering that his Soviet interlocutors were prepared to concede less and less, and such talks abruptly stalled under Stalin, to whom the Vatican was an irrelevance.
From Sacred Causes by Michael Burleigh - Chapter 3 "The Churches in the Age of Dictators", section II - "The Vatican, Communism and Fascism" page 164
Vatican concordats with governments do not imply approval of the governments. Of course there is a danger that a vicious dictatorship will use the agreement in order to boost its international standing - and that is precisely what the Soviet government was trying to do in the early 1920s. Indeed negotiations with the Vatican broke down because several governments - including both Britain and fascist Italy(!) - recognised the Soviet Union in 1924 and the Soviets no longer needed an agreement with the Vatican. However the future Pope Pius XII continued to negotiate even "when the execution in Leningrad of a Polish Catholic priest complicated matters" !!
.... Both nuncios, Ratti in Warsaw and the younger Pacelli in Munich (until 1925, when he moved to Berlin as nuncio to the German Reich), were closely involved in Rome's diplomatic initiatives with the Soviets. The Vatican initially welcomed the fall of the Romanovs, believing that this would herald a new era of freedom and opportunity for the Roman Catholic Church in the debris of the Tsarist Empire. Benedict XV employed Ratti to contact Lenin on behalf of persecuted Catholic and Orthodox clergy.
In late 1921, the Vatican offered the Soviet Union humanitarian assistance hurriedly incorporating a broader secret agreement which, capitalising on the disarray of the Orthodox Church would - they imagined - have enhanced Roman Catholic activities in Russia. The aid was provided but the wider agreement remained a dead letter. Assisted by the German Government which saw relations with Russia as a means of terminating Germany's pariah status, the archbishop of Genoa held talks with the Soviet foreign affairs commisar Chicherin on board an Italian cruiser with a view to negotiating a concordat. A further series of meetings took place at Rapallo, based on Vatican calls for freedom of conscience and Soviet demands for diplomatic recognition. Effortlessly overcoming the extreme distaste for German (Jewish) Bolsheviks that he is alleged to have expressed in 1919, Pacelli met Maxim Litvinov, the Soviet Union's (Jewish) foreign minister, at the Berlin villa of the brother of the German ambassador to Moscow.
When Mussolini recognised the Soviet Union on 8 February 1924, and was quickly followed by, among others, Britain, Norway, Austria, Greece and Sweden, the Soviets ceased to regard negotiations with the Vatican as important except for the question of aid. Pacelli continued to negotiate with the Soviets in Berlin until mid-August 1925 when the execution in Leningrad of a Polish Catholic priest complicated matters. However he met Chicherin twice in 1925 and 1927, discovering that his Soviet interlocutors were prepared to concede less and less, and such talks abruptly stalled under Stalin, to whom the Vatican was an irrelevance.
From Sacred Causes by Michael Burleigh - Chapter 3 "The Churches in the Age of Dictators", section II - "The Vatican, Communism and Fascism" page 164
Seanie Lemass
Originally
Posted by between the bridges
Godwin’s in the first post? Well to continue
the theme been a member of the hilter youth didn’t effect a certain Roman
Catholics cleric’s career…
There were 18.9 million people of the eligable age to join the HJ when the Pope did. 18.7 million of them did. Now, think about that. You reckon they were all enthusiasts? Do you understand anything about totalitarianism?
Seanie Lemass
Originally
Posted by Chiara
Yes, in my opinion, Hitler wasn't completely wrong.
Unfortuantely a lot of priests cared and still care more to keep self
advantages. The question is if the greedy ones were (and are) more than the
good ones, I hope not.
Regarding the Pope, nowadays, at last, public opinion recognizes that he was a much better person than he was thought to be.
P.S. Hope I made myself understood in the last sentence. Got some problems wuth my English.
Regarding the Pope, nowadays, at last, public opinion recognizes that he was a much better person than he was thought to be.
P.S. Hope I made myself understood in the last sentence. Got some problems wuth my English.
And they built the autobanhen!
·
Thread Tools
between the bridges
Originally
Posted by Seanie Lemass
There were 18.9 million people of the
eligable age to join the HJ
when the Pope did. 18.7 million of them did. Now, think about that. You
reckon they were all enthusiasts? Do you understand anything about
totalitarianism?
so i shouldn't
judge a whole orginasition on the basis of some/one bad apple/s?
as for 'totalitarianism' i am unionist don't you know we wrote the book..
as for 'totalitarianism' i am unionist don't you know we wrote the book..
Kilbarry1
Originally
Posted by LongLiberal
Simply, no.
There are no parallels in this country. One aspect is talking about 1930's Germany and the other is 21st century Ireland. You seem to be trying to push some sort of idea that the Catholic Church were in opposition to Hitlers Nazi regime, which is simply laughable.
Firstly, the Vatican kept very very quiet during the Holocaust, why is that?
Hitler himself was a Roman Catholic and often throughout Mein Kampf spoke about "doing god's work". He was baptised and never renounced his baptism. All soldiers in the SS would place three fingers in their belt to signify the Holy Trinity.
Also, and most significantly the Cardinal Arch-Bishop of Munich, Adolf Bertram, held a special mass in 1939, when Hitler escaped assassination, to celebrate "the fortunate release of the Fuhrer". ........
.
There are no parallels in this country. One aspect is talking about 1930's Germany and the other is 21st century Ireland. You seem to be trying to push some sort of idea that the Catholic Church were in opposition to Hitlers Nazi regime, which is simply laughable.
Firstly, the Vatican kept very very quiet during the Holocaust, why is that?
Hitler himself was a Roman Catholic and often throughout Mein Kampf spoke about "doing god's work". He was baptised and never renounced his baptism. All soldiers in the SS would place three fingers in their belt to signify the Holy Trinity.
Also, and most significantly the Cardinal Arch-Bishop of Munich, Adolf Bertram, held a special mass in 1939, when Hitler escaped assassination, to celebrate "the fortunate release of the Fuhrer". ........
.
I'm not sure why
it is necessary to keep on refuting this nonsense. It has been done before - by
myself and others - on the Politics.ie website and the book "Hitler's
Table Talk" was first published in 1953. However here it is again.
Extracts from "Hitler's Secret Conversations" (aka "Hitler's Table Talk") regarding Christianity
The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, "Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944", which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.
All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday:
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
Hitler was in fact, a Social Darwinist who believed in an impersonal Providence which gives victory to the strong by using a process of natural selection to ensure the survival of the fittest. (He objected to Christianity because he saw it as "a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature ..... the systematic cultivation of the human failure".)
Extracts from "Hitler's Secret Conversations" (aka "Hitler's Table Talk") regarding Christianity
The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, "Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944", which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.
All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday:
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
Hitler was in fact, a Social Darwinist who believed in an impersonal Providence which gives victory to the strong by using a process of natural selection to ensure the survival of the fittest. (He objected to Christianity because he saw it as "a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature ..... the systematic cultivation of the human failure".)
Kilbarry1
Child Killing
Allegations by Anti-Clerics: Nazis and "Lliberals"
HOWEVER the
subject of this thread is "Nazis, the Catholic Church and Sexual
Abuse"
It is a fact that the Nazis launched a campaign against the Catholic Church that involved invented or grossly exaggerated allegations of child sexual abuse. it is also a fact that the Nazis did the same in relation to the Jews - and in their case included allegations that Christian children were murdered by Jews.
In his book "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", William Shirer has this to say about Hitler's favourite anti-Semite Julius Streicher:
"A famous fornicator he made his fame and fortune as a blindly fanatical anti-Semite. His notorious weekly Der Stuermer thrived on lurid tales of Jewish sexual crimes and Jewish "ritual murders"; its obscenity was nauseating even to many Nazis".
You will note that not all Nazis were enthusiastic about Herr Streicher and his allegations.
The following is an extract from my own website:
This website is about false allegations of child abuse - mainly those directed at the Catholic Church in Ireland. I do not dispute that there are real cases of abuse of children by clerics but my contention is that these have been used as an excuse to launch a witch-hunt. This witch-hunt has now spread to every part of our society so that every teacher, doctor, nurse, social worker etc has to take specific precautions to guard against becoming the target of a false accusation. ........
"Letter to Sunday Tribune re Child-Killing Allegations"
Christian Brothers, Child Killing Allegations, Letter to Sunday Tribune
is a summary of several allegations that the Christian Brothers were responsible for killing children in their care. (We are not talking about negligence here.) The allegations were made in a 4 to 5 year period beginning in 1999 (i.e. just after the broadcast of Mary Raftery's "States of Fear" series by the national broadcast company RTE in April/May of that year). Prior to the broadcast of "States of Fear", there was just one allegation of that type and it was directed at the Sisters of Mercy. I have discussed this in the essay "Sister Xavieria and "Child Killing" in Goldenbridge".
Sister Xavieria, Sisters of Mercy, 'Child Killing' in Goldenbridge
(This allegation followed RTE's broadcast of Louis Lentin's documentary "Dear Daughter" in February 1996 which made serious allegations against the Sisters of Mercy in Goldenbridge residential school.)
The above is more relevant to the subject of this thread than general claims that "Hitler was a Catholic" etc Also the people who made these false claims seem to have got away with it, whereas even some Nazis were nauseated by Julius Streicher.
It is a fact that the Nazis launched a campaign against the Catholic Church that involved invented or grossly exaggerated allegations of child sexual abuse. it is also a fact that the Nazis did the same in relation to the Jews - and in their case included allegations that Christian children were murdered by Jews.
In his book "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", William Shirer has this to say about Hitler's favourite anti-Semite Julius Streicher:
"A famous fornicator he made his fame and fortune as a blindly fanatical anti-Semite. His notorious weekly Der Stuermer thrived on lurid tales of Jewish sexual crimes and Jewish "ritual murders"; its obscenity was nauseating even to many Nazis".
You will note that not all Nazis were enthusiastic about Herr Streicher and his allegations.
The following is an extract from my own website:
This website is about false allegations of child abuse - mainly those directed at the Catholic Church in Ireland. I do not dispute that there are real cases of abuse of children by clerics but my contention is that these have been used as an excuse to launch a witch-hunt. This witch-hunt has now spread to every part of our society so that every teacher, doctor, nurse, social worker etc has to take specific precautions to guard against becoming the target of a false accusation. ........
"Letter to Sunday Tribune re Child-Killing Allegations"
Christian Brothers, Child Killing Allegations, Letter to Sunday Tribune
is a summary of several allegations that the Christian Brothers were responsible for killing children in their care. (We are not talking about negligence here.) The allegations were made in a 4 to 5 year period beginning in 1999 (i.e. just after the broadcast of Mary Raftery's "States of Fear" series by the national broadcast company RTE in April/May of that year). Prior to the broadcast of "States of Fear", there was just one allegation of that type and it was directed at the Sisters of Mercy. I have discussed this in the essay "Sister Xavieria and "Child Killing" in Goldenbridge".
Sister Xavieria, Sisters of Mercy, 'Child Killing' in Goldenbridge
(This allegation followed RTE's broadcast of Louis Lentin's documentary "Dear Daughter" in February 1996 which made serious allegations against the Sisters of Mercy in Goldenbridge residential school.)
The above is more relevant to the subject of this thread than general claims that "Hitler was a Catholic" etc Also the people who made these false claims seem to have got away with it, whereas even some Nazis were nauseated by Julius Streicher.
Kilbarry1
Child Killing
Allegations by Anti-Clerics: Nazis and "Lliberals"
Originally
Posted by Kilbarry1
.........
The following is an extract from my own website:
This website is about false allegations of child abuse - mainly those directed at the Catholic Church in Ireland. I do not dispute that there are real cases of abuse of children by clerics but my contention is that these have been used as an excuse to launch a witch-hunt. This witch-hunt has now spread to every part of our society so that every teacher, doctor, nurse, social worker etc has to take specific precautions to guard against becoming the target of a false accusation. ........
"Letter to Sunday Tribune re Child-Killing Allegations"
Christian Brothers, Child Killing Allegations, Letter to Sunday Tribune
is a summary of several allegations that the Christian Brothers were responsible for killing children in their care. (We are not talking about negligence here.) The allegations were made in a 4 to 5 year period beginning in 1999 (i.e. just after the broadcast of Mary Raftery's "States of Fear" series by the national broadcast company RTE in April/May of that year). Prior to the broadcast of "States of Fear", there was just one allegation of that type and it was directed at the Sisters of Mercy. I have discussed this in the essay "Sister Xavieria and "Child Killing" in Goldenbridge".
Sister Xavieria, Sisters of Mercy, 'Child Killing' in Goldenbridge
(This allegation followed RTE's broadcast of Louis Lentin's documentary "Dear Daughter" in February 1996 which made serious allegations against the Sisters of Mercy in Goldenbridge residential school.) ........
The following is an extract from my own website:
This website is about false allegations of child abuse - mainly those directed at the Catholic Church in Ireland. I do not dispute that there are real cases of abuse of children by clerics but my contention is that these have been used as an excuse to launch a witch-hunt. This witch-hunt has now spread to every part of our society so that every teacher, doctor, nurse, social worker etc has to take specific precautions to guard against becoming the target of a false accusation. ........
"Letter to Sunday Tribune re Child-Killing Allegations"
Christian Brothers, Child Killing Allegations, Letter to Sunday Tribune
is a summary of several allegations that the Christian Brothers were responsible for killing children in their care. (We are not talking about negligence here.) The allegations were made in a 4 to 5 year period beginning in 1999 (i.e. just after the broadcast of Mary Raftery's "States of Fear" series by the national broadcast company RTE in April/May of that year). Prior to the broadcast of "States of Fear", there was just one allegation of that type and it was directed at the Sisters of Mercy. I have discussed this in the essay "Sister Xavieria and "Child Killing" in Goldenbridge".
Sister Xavieria, Sisters of Mercy, 'Child Killing' in Goldenbridge
(This allegation followed RTE's broadcast of Louis Lentin's documentary "Dear Daughter" in February 1996 which made serious allegations against the Sisters of Mercy in Goldenbridge residential school.) ........
I'm heading off
now BUT
Louis Lentin is Jewish. A better example of "biting off your nose to spite your face" would be almost impossible to find!
Louis Lentin, Christine Buckley, Gerry Kelly, False Allegations against Sisters of Mercy and Christian Brothers
Louis Lentin is Jewish. A better example of "biting off your nose to spite your face" would be almost impossible to find!
Louis Lentin, Christine Buckley, Gerry Kelly, False Allegations against Sisters of Mercy and Christian Brothers
TommyO'Brien
Originally
Posted by Kilbarry1
I'm heading off now
Don't rush back.
LongLiberal
Originally
Posted by Kilbarry1
I'm not sure why it is necessary to keep on
refuting this nonsense. It has been done before - by myself and others - on the
Politics.ie website and the book "Hitler's Table Talk" was first
published in 1953. However here it is again.
Extracts from "Hitler's Secret Conversations" (aka "Hitler's Table Talk") regarding Christianity
The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, "Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944", which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.
All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday:
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
Hitler was in fact, a Social Darwinist who believed in an impersonal Providence which gives victory to the strong by using a process of natural selection to ensure the survival of the fittest. (He objected to Christianity because he saw it as "a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature ..... the systematic cultivation of the human failure".)
Extracts from "Hitler's Secret Conversations" (aka "Hitler's Table Talk") regarding Christianity
The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, "Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944", which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.
All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday:
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
Hitler was in fact, a Social Darwinist who believed in an impersonal Providence which gives victory to the strong by using a process of natural selection to ensure the survival of the fittest. (He objected to Christianity because he saw it as "a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature ..... the systematic cultivation of the human failure".)
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1
Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1
Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5
What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8
Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1
In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11
In a public address in Munich -
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."
Stuttgart address February 15th 1933 -
"Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany’s fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity"
LongLiberal
Originally
Posted by Kilbarry1
HOWEVER the subject of this thread is
"Nazis, the Catholic Church and Sexual Abuse"
It is a fact that the Nazis launched a campaign against the Catholic Church that involved invented or grossly exaggerated allegations of child sexual abuse. it is also a fact that the Nazis did the same in relation to the Jews - and in their case included allegations that Christian children were murdered by Jews.
In his book "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", William Shirer has this to say about Hitler's favourite anti-Semite Julius Streicher:
"A famous fornicator he made his fame and fortune as a blindly fanatical anti-Semite. His notorious weekly Der Stuermer thrived on lurid tales of Jewish sexual crimes and Jewish "ritual murders"; its obscenity was nauseating even to many Nazis".
You will note that not all Nazis were enthusiastic about Herr Streicher and his allegations.
The following is an extract from my own website:
This website is about false allegations of child abuse - mainly those directed at the Catholic Church in Ireland. I do not dispute that there are real cases of abuse of children by clerics but my contention is that these have been used as an excuse to launch a witch-hunt. This witch-hunt has now spread to every part of our society so that every teacher, doctor, nurse, social worker etc has to take specific precautions to guard against becoming the target of a false accusation. ........
"Letter to Sunday Tribune re Child-Killing Allegations"
Christian Brothers, Child Killing Allegations, Letter to Sunday Tribune
is a summary of several allegations that the Christian Brothers were responsible for killing children in their care. (We are not talking about negligence here.) The allegations were made in a 4 to 5 year period beginning in 1999 (i.e. just after the broadcast of Mary Raftery's "States of Fear" series by the national broadcast company RTE in April/May of that year). Prior to the broadcast of "States of Fear", there was just one allegation of that type and it was directed at the Sisters of Mercy. I have discussed this in the essay "Sister Xavieria and "Child Killing" in Goldenbridge".
Sister Xavieria, Sisters of Mercy, 'Child Killing' in Goldenbridge
(This allegation followed RTE's broadcast of Louis Lentin's documentary "Dear Daughter" in February 1996 which made serious allegations against the Sisters of Mercy in Goldenbridge residential school.)
The above is more relevant to the subject of this thread than general claims that "Hitler was a Catholic" etc Also the people who made these false claims seem to have got away with it, whereas even some Nazis were nauseated by Julius Streicher.
It is a fact that the Nazis launched a campaign against the Catholic Church that involved invented or grossly exaggerated allegations of child sexual abuse. it is also a fact that the Nazis did the same in relation to the Jews - and in their case included allegations that Christian children were murdered by Jews.
In his book "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", William Shirer has this to say about Hitler's favourite anti-Semite Julius Streicher:
"A famous fornicator he made his fame and fortune as a blindly fanatical anti-Semite. His notorious weekly Der Stuermer thrived on lurid tales of Jewish sexual crimes and Jewish "ritual murders"; its obscenity was nauseating even to many Nazis".
You will note that not all Nazis were enthusiastic about Herr Streicher and his allegations.
The following is an extract from my own website:
This website is about false allegations of child abuse - mainly those directed at the Catholic Church in Ireland. I do not dispute that there are real cases of abuse of children by clerics but my contention is that these have been used as an excuse to launch a witch-hunt. This witch-hunt has now spread to every part of our society so that every teacher, doctor, nurse, social worker etc has to take specific precautions to guard against becoming the target of a false accusation. ........
"Letter to Sunday Tribune re Child-Killing Allegations"
Christian Brothers, Child Killing Allegations, Letter to Sunday Tribune
is a summary of several allegations that the Christian Brothers were responsible for killing children in their care. (We are not talking about negligence here.) The allegations were made in a 4 to 5 year period beginning in 1999 (i.e. just after the broadcast of Mary Raftery's "States of Fear" series by the national broadcast company RTE in April/May of that year). Prior to the broadcast of "States of Fear", there was just one allegation of that type and it was directed at the Sisters of Mercy. I have discussed this in the essay "Sister Xavieria and "Child Killing" in Goldenbridge".
Sister Xavieria, Sisters of Mercy, 'Child Killing' in Goldenbridge
(This allegation followed RTE's broadcast of Louis Lentin's documentary "Dear Daughter" in February 1996 which made serious allegations against the Sisters of Mercy in Goldenbridge residential school.)
The above is more relevant to the subject of this thread than general claims that "Hitler was a Catholic" etc Also the people who made these false claims seem to have got away with it, whereas even some Nazis were nauseated by Julius Streicher.
HOWEVER the subject of this thread is
"Nazis, the Catholic Church and Sexual Abuse"
waffle waffle waffle
waffle waffle waffle
You claimed
"it is a fact that ..." - the opinion of an American Journalist is
far from from fact. Quite the opposite.
Also I see your website there and its great that lunatics like are go to the lengths you do as it only contributes the impending annihilation of this Nazi, pedophile infested, backward, evil and ridiculous organisation.
Also I see your website there and its great that lunatics like are go to the lengths you do as it only contributes the impending annihilation of this Nazi, pedophile infested, backward, evil and ridiculous organisation.
Kilbarry1
Anti-Clericalism and
Anti-Semitism
Originally
Posted by LongLiberal
You claimed "it is a fact that ..."
- the opinion of an American Journalist is far from from fact. Quite the
opposite.
Also I see your website there and its great that lunatics like are go to the lengths you do as it only contributes the impending annihilation of this Nazi, pedophile infested, backward, evil and ridiculous organisation.
Also I see your website there and its great that lunatics like are go to the lengths you do as it only contributes the impending annihilation of this Nazi, pedophile infested, backward, evil and ridiculous organisation.
By "the
opinion of an American journalist" I presume you mean William Shirer's
depiction of Julius Streicher as a vicious pornographer who made false sexual
allegations against Jews - up to and including the ritual murder of children?
There is nothing at all controversial about Shirer's "opinion". The
following is from the Wikipedia article on Julius Streicher and his newspaper
Der Sturmer.
Julius Streicher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
...... Streicher’s opponents complained to authorities that Der Stürmer violated a statute against religious offense with his constant promulgation of the “blood libel” — the medieval accusation that Jews killed Christian children to use their blood to make matzoh. Streicher argued that his accusations were based on race, not religion, and that his communications were political speech, and therefore protected by the German constitution.[5]
Streicher orchestrated his early campaigns against Jews to make the most extreme possible claims, short of violating a law that might get the paper shut down. ........ He claimed that Jews were white-slavers and were responsible for over 90 percent of the prostitutes in the country. Real unsolved killings in Germany, especially of children or women, were often confidently explained in the pages of Der Stürmer as cases of “Jewish ritual murder.”
One of Streicher’s constant themes was the sexual violation of ethnically German women by Jews, a subject which served as an excuse to publish semi-pornographic tracts and images detailing degrading sexual acts. These “essays” proved an especially appealing feature of the paper for young men. With the help of his notorious cartoonist, Phillip "Fips" Rupprecht, Streicher published image after image of gruesome Jewish stereotypes and sexually-charged encounters. His portrayal of Jews as subhuman and evil is widely considered to have played a critical role in the dehumanization and marginalization of the Jewish minority in the eyes of common Germans .....
Streicher also combed the pages of the Talmud and the Old Testament in search of passages which could paint their ancient Jewish authors as harsh or cruel, a practice which continues to this day among anti-Semites. In 1929, this close study of Jewish scripture helped convict Streicher in a case known as “The Great Nuremberg Ritual Murder Trial.” His familiarity with Jewish text was proof to the court that his attacks were religious in nature; Streicher was found guilty and imprisoned for two months. .........
The allegations of child murder against the Christian Brothers and the Sisters of Mercy have now been discredited, and even those who made them, no longer try to repeat them. But perhaps LongLiberal believes them still?? It might explain his description of the Catholic Church as "this Nazi, pedophile infested, backward, evil and ridiculous organisation". Apart from the word "Nazi", this string of obscenities could be taken from the pages of Der Sturmer, as Streicher's depiction of the Jews!
Julius Streicher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
...... Streicher’s opponents complained to authorities that Der Stürmer violated a statute against religious offense with his constant promulgation of the “blood libel” — the medieval accusation that Jews killed Christian children to use their blood to make matzoh. Streicher argued that his accusations were based on race, not religion, and that his communications were political speech, and therefore protected by the German constitution.[5]
Streicher orchestrated his early campaigns against Jews to make the most extreme possible claims, short of violating a law that might get the paper shut down. ........ He claimed that Jews were white-slavers and were responsible for over 90 percent of the prostitutes in the country. Real unsolved killings in Germany, especially of children or women, were often confidently explained in the pages of Der Stürmer as cases of “Jewish ritual murder.”
One of Streicher’s constant themes was the sexual violation of ethnically German women by Jews, a subject which served as an excuse to publish semi-pornographic tracts and images detailing degrading sexual acts. These “essays” proved an especially appealing feature of the paper for young men. With the help of his notorious cartoonist, Phillip "Fips" Rupprecht, Streicher published image after image of gruesome Jewish stereotypes and sexually-charged encounters. His portrayal of Jews as subhuman and evil is widely considered to have played a critical role in the dehumanization and marginalization of the Jewish minority in the eyes of common Germans .....
Streicher also combed the pages of the Talmud and the Old Testament in search of passages which could paint their ancient Jewish authors as harsh or cruel, a practice which continues to this day among anti-Semites. In 1929, this close study of Jewish scripture helped convict Streicher in a case known as “The Great Nuremberg Ritual Murder Trial.” His familiarity with Jewish text was proof to the court that his attacks were religious in nature; Streicher was found guilty and imprisoned for two months. .........
The allegations of child murder against the Christian Brothers and the Sisters of Mercy have now been discredited, and even those who made them, no longer try to repeat them. But perhaps LongLiberal believes them still?? It might explain his description of the Catholic Church as "this Nazi, pedophile infested, backward, evil and ridiculous organisation". Apart from the word "Nazi", this string of obscenities could be taken from the pages of Der Sturmer, as Streicher's depiction of the Jews!
Kilbarry1
LongLiberal
Regarding your quotations from "Mein Kamph" and Hitler's public speeches, do you understand that the book "Hitler's Table Talk" consists of officially recorded notes of his private conversations with his confidantes at the dinner table during the years 1941 - 44. (Martin Bormann was one of the note-takers.) These represent proof of Hitler's REAL views. Regarding his PUBLIC statements - he made an awful lot about his desire for peace; do you believe those?
