Kevin Myers and the Age of De Valera and McQuaid

John Charles McQuaid and Eamon De Valera

[The following is based on a discussion on the Politics.ie website entitled "Kevin Myers Kills His Own Career" ]

Now that "the tumult and the shouting dies" (sort of) maybe it's time for a summing up. I am combining a couple of previous posts below. In the two original posts,  I was trying to imagine how future historians will report on this episode - and especially how they will report on the behaviour of our beloved Taoiseach and Tanaiste. [Irish Prime Minister and Deputy PM for you foreigners].

Both the Taoiseach and the Tanaiste have said that the Sunday Times have taken the right action in apologising and dropping Kevin Myers following his controversial column on Sunday [30 July 2017].

During their visit to Waterford on Monday, the two government leaders were asked their opinion on Mr Myers's column.

"I read the article and it is misogynistic and anti-Semitic in my view and I think The Sunday Times has taken the appropriate action," Mr Varadkar said.

The Tanaiste Frances Fitzgerald said: "I regret that the article was published, I have to say, in the first place but certainly I think that now the right action has been taken and there’s an onus on everyone, including the media obviously, to make sure that articles like that do not appear."......

Let's suppose that this had happened in the 1950s - that dark and repressive period of our history. The Irish Press publishes an article that some see as critical of the Catholic Church. There is a hysterical outcry that leads to the firing of the journalist and sudden allegations that an article he wrote in the 1940s was ALSO anti-Catholic. Both de Valera and Sean Lemass join in denouncing the journalist and Lemass explicitly states that all such articles should be banned in future.

But in fact the journalist is a practising Catholic, the article is NOT anti-clerical and Archbishop McQuaid has to make a public statement pointing this out!

Can you imagine what our historians- and journalists - would be writing about this episode today?

My Further Comment
The above analogy isn't enough to convey the lunacy and hypocrisy that constitutes "debate" in modern Ireland. The Jewish Representative Council of Ireland has  supported Kevin Myers. If a similar episode had happened in the 1950s, you would have to imagine that even AFTER John Charles declared that the journalist was NOT anti-Catholic, the hysterical loonies went ahead and wrecked the guy's career anyway!

Still Later Comment

I have previously quoted the imbecilic remarks of our beloved Taoiseach and Tanaiste on the necessity of censoring the evil ideas of Kevin Myers. I was somewhat surprised because both are Fine Gael, but former Tanaiste Joan Burton doesn't surprise me at all:

Sunday Times' probe into How Myers Article was Published 

..... Meanwhile, former tánaiste [Deputy PM] Joan Burton has said newspaper editors need to ensure articles which are grossly prejudicial to women should never be published. Ms Burton welcomed Mr Myers's apology, but said steps should be taken to ensure similar pieces are not published in future. "Gross prejudice against women should have no place in modern journalism and it is an editor's responsibility to ensure the kind of prejudice we've seen this week doesn't happen again," she said.....

This is PRECISELY what I would expect of a Labour Party Female Politician,  but the fact that Fine Gael beat her to it is genuinely troubling.

FINAL Comment:
I summed up at one point by writing: "I just re-located the FINAL part of my analogy of the 1950s in which I imagine Leo Varadkar and Frances Fitzgerald as de Valera and Lemass, the Jewish Representative Council of Ireland as John Charles McQuaid and Kevin Myers as a hapless Catholic traditionalist who is being denounced by the mob as an Enemy of the Church. The difference nowadays is that the mob are so out of control that even the Archbishop can't stop them!"

Will any of the foregoing personnel who are still among the living, be pleased with the role I have allocated them in this little parable? Well hopefully not; it's intended as a tribute to the deceased anyway!

Comment July 2018 - But maybe he is a “misogynist??
But is Kevin Myers a “misogynist”?  When Nora Wall was falsely convicted of rape and sentenced to life imprisonment, Kevin Myers was the ONLY journalist to speak out on her behalf.  However according to the Wikipedia article on Nora Wall “The director of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre, Olive Braiden, welcomed the imposition of a maximum sentence, and said it would ensure that Nora Wall would be monitored for the rest of her life to prevent recurrence.”.......No comment from Ms Braiden after the case against Nora Wall collapsed.

 Being opposed to THAT kind of Feminism does not make anyone a “misogynist”! 

Comment 19 November 2019

RTE Apologises to Journalist Kevin Myers for 'Untrue and Defamatory' Claim he was a 'Holocaust Denier' Irish Independent 19 November 2019

RTE has issued an on-air apology to journalist Kevin Myers as part of an out-of-court settlement reached between himself and the State broadcaster. Mr Myers had launched a defamation suit against RTE after it described him as a 'holocaust denier' during a broadcast on its flagship news and current affairs show 'Morning Ireland' in July, 2017.

As part of the undisclosed settlement, newsreader Bryan Dobson read out the apology just before the 9am news on Morning Ireland today.

He stated: "Morning Ireland introduced an item that suggested that Kevin Myers was a holocaust denier. This was untrue and defamatory of Mr Myer's character. Morning Ireland acknowledges that Mr Myers has, for over three decades, repeatedly testified to the scale and wickedness of Hitler's Final Solution. Morning Ireland acknowledges the damage done to Mr Myer's reputation. We regret this and unreservedly apologise."

A statement from Mr Myer's solicitor Eamonn Denieffe this afternoon said: " On behalf of our client, Mr Kevin Myers, we wish to confirm that a satisfactory settlement has been reached with RTE in relation to a broadcast on 'Morning Ireland' on July 31, 2017. This broadcast resulted in an action for defamation against RTE which has now been settled. This settlement includes a broadcast apology, an acknowledgment of factual errors that resulted in reputational harm to Mr Myers, the payment of damages and his legal costs.”

Mr Myers declined to comment as did RTE.

The settlement follows a ruling by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland in February, 2018 which upheld a complaint from a member of the public that RTE's depiction of Mr Myers as a holocaust denier was "unfair."

 

MY CONCLUSION [December 2020]

In July 2017 journalist Kevin Myers was libelled by our Irish Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister, a previous Deputy Prime Minister AND by State Broadcaster RTE. It's a series of events unprecedented in the history of the Irish State, of the EU and probably of any democratic society!

Kevin Myers is the only journalist to have defended former Sister of Mercy Nora Wall in June 1999 when she was falsely convicted of raping a child.*** He is also a strong critic of the Provisional IRA whose political wing Sinn Fein are currently (December 2020) the main opposition party and are likely to come to power after the next Irish General Election. We are a society that is spewing on itself!

*** In contrast, our last EU Commissioner Phil Hogan and last Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan both used Parliamentary Privilege to libel Nora.

 

See also articles Kevin Myers and J.K. Rowling; Kevin Myers, Vanessa Feltz and Anti-Semitism; and  Kevin Myers, Jews and False Allegations of Anti-Semitism

Kevin Myers, Jews and False Allegations of Anti-Semitism

Kevin Myers

Or an alternative title to this article might be

Jews and Circular Firing Squads

The following is from a discussion on the Politics.ie website entitled "Kevin Myers Kills His Own Career"

Jews and Circular Firing Squads  - Conor Cruise O'Brien

The grotesque fiasco cantered around the firing of Kevin Myers by The Sunday Times is a prime example of Jews shooting themselves in the foot and playing into the hands of their enemies - and at this stage I personally am becoming an enemy! There were TWO previous cases where the results  were not so OBVIOUSLY self-defeating for Jews but the rot was still setting in. I am thinking of the late Conor Cruise O'Brien and also Alan Shatter making false claims about the Catholic Church and the murder of children.

The following is from post #261 re Conor Cruise.

This is the late Conor Cruise O'Brien making allegations that children were murdered by the Christian Brothers - a supporter of Israel peddling Blood libel! Similar to the own goal just scored by Witch-hunters sniffing out anti-Semites in the most unlikely places.

Conor Cruise O'Brien, National Archives, Mary Raftery, Blood Libel

...Article in Irish Independent by CC O’Brien on 15 May 1999 “Child Abuse Issue must be Fearlessly Confronted Now”. Conor Cruise compares the treatment of children by the Catholic Church with the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis. “The holocaust took six million lives, mostly over a three year period. The abuse of children took few actual lives, it did take some but it inflicted great suffering on many thousands of children over several centuries.” ....

Conor Cruise specifically promised to follow up on his allegations but never did. He was unpopular with left wing journalists who - in other circumstances - would have been delighted to demand he provide proof or  apologise for his child-killing claims. However they let him away with that one because it suited their agenda just fine!

Jews and Circular Firing Squads  - Alan Shatter and the Murder of Bernadette Connolly

This is post # 871

Originally Posted by Kilbarry1  [Myself]
Agreed. I sometimes buy the Sunday Times and Kevin Myers column is one of the reasons. Generally I go into my local Easons, take a copy into a corner and go through part 1 in particular to see if it's worth spending my €3. I skimmed through Myers article on page 15, generally agreed with it, certainly did not see it as anti-Semitic (and I support Israel) and decided not to purchase this week. Then I saw the politics thread and bought it after all.

This is a lunatic controversy and when the Jewish lobby calm down they will recognise it as a disaster. From my point of view, this is the THIRD time that I have seen this type of lunacy and I am getting sick of it and reconsidering my attitude towards Jews and Israel.

Reply by L'Chaim

Wow! How some group responds to something somebody wrote would lead you to reconsider your attitude towards Jews and Israel. How fickle that attitude must have been in the first place.

My Reply to L'Chaim

The FIRST episode was when the late Conor Cruise O'Brien promoted Blood Libel against the Christian Brothers - he was echoing Mary Raftery .  The SECOND was the following
Gardai Find No Cover-Up in 1970 Murder of Girl

A GARDA review of the investigation into the murder of 10-year-old Bernadette Connolly 40 years ago has found no evidence of a cover-up.

The child was murdered and her body dumped in a bog in Collooney, Co Sligo, in 1970 -- but 40 years on the killing remains unsolved. The latest review was prompted by concerns that detectives had been hampered in their original investigation because the suspects included a priest who is now dead. But the review has now concluded that there was no evidence that the murder investigation was "impeded or inhibited in any way".

The findings were disclosed by Justice Minister Dermot Ahern in response to a parliamentary question from Alan Shatter, the Fine Gael TD who had previously alleged that the original garda file was shown to a senior member of the Catholic Church........

Mr Shatter alleged in the Dail that Bernadette's murder had not been comprehensively investigated and that a copy of the garda file was given to a senior member of the Catholic Church. The family was promised a full and comprehensive review of the case by Assistant Commissioner Kieran Kenny in December of last year.

In his reply to the parliamentary question, Mr Ahern said: "This review has been completed and the review team has found no evidence to support the view that the original investigation was inhibited or impeded in any way. "A comprehensive meeting was held with members of the person's family in September, 2010, during which their concerns surrounding the investigation were addressed."........

And then a few months later Alan Shatter became Minister for Justice himself!

Jews and Circular Firing Squads - Summary

The first two episodes above had no OBVIOUS negative consequences for the accusers. This was curious in one way since neither CC O'Brien nor Alan Shatter were popular with left wing and "liberal" journalists. However the same journalists shared their hatred for the Catholic Church so had no objection to THAT kind of false accusation (i.e. Blood Libel). The problem is that many of the same journalists are as anti-Semitic as they are anti-Catholic so this kind of action by the Jewish lobby was bound to blow up in their faces at some stage. Now it has. Defaming Kevin Myers as an anti-Semite is not only immoral - it is also profoundly stupid!

Justine McCarthy, Fintan O'Toole and the Power of The Patriarchy

Justine McCarthy

Fintan O'Toole

Women Can Shout Out Loud But It Takes a Man’s Voice to Make Society Listen [1]

Justine McCarthy has an article in the Sunday Times on 15 October 2017, 'Boycott of Newstalk Goes Both Ways Now'  that includes sentiments that would cause  our FemiNazis to foam with rage if she wasn't one herself.
The sub-heading is "Women Can Shout Out Loud But It Takes a Man’s Voice to Make Society Listen"

The following is a sample:
"The morning Fintan O’Toole wrote in the Irish Times that he would no longer appear on Newstalk radio because it was “flagrantly sexist”, I texted him: “I just want to say, as a woman, thank you for writing that column.” .........

I agreed with O’Toole’s every sentiment, except the very first one in the opening sentence when he modestly opined that his declaration of a boycott was “of no consequence”. It was bound to create ructions, for he is eminent, erudite, and a man. Ergo, he is listened to.......

Women can yell from the rooftops but it takes a man’s voice to make the world listen......Women will continue to need courageous men to speak out until female liberation is credibly delivered. [My emphasis]  It is no coincidence, after all, that there is a man in emancipation. ...."

Now I do understand that the above is part of a convoluted argument about Victimhood and Oppression. Justine McCarthy did NOT intend to depict herself as a helpless simpering female who is writing a hymn of praise to the dominant male sex .  HOWEVER it could certainly be interpreted that way and McCarthy COULD conceivable have her career destroyed by fellow FemiNazis. So why is she allowed to get away with it?

Women Can Shout Out Loud But It Takes a Man’s Voice to Make Society Listen [2]

I wrote about the Fintan O'Toole article that Justine McCarthy is so keen on here. The title is "Fintan O'Toole and the Two Archbishops" and there is an extract below:

In his article of 12 September entitled "Why I will Not Appear on Newstalk Again" (subtitle "George Hook’s Rape Comments are the Result of the Station’s Flagrantly Sexist Strategy"), Fintan O'Toole begins as follows:

"What I have to say is of no consequence. The organisation against which it is aimed will be no more conscious of it than a speeding car is of a fly mashed into the corner of its windscreen. But here it is anyway: from now on I won’t be appearing on any Newstalk programmes." 

O'Toole presents himself as a lone individual who is "speaking truth to power" and bravely taking a stance against "the powers that be". The opposite would be closer to the truth!

Women Can Shout Out Loud But It Takes a Man’s Voice to Make Society Listen [3]

It would be interesting to watch Irish feminists' reaction if Breda O'Brien wrote a similar adoring tribute to the Dominant White Male - with David Quinn as the object of her affections!

Irish feminists  are becoming as stupid as they are vicious. I have written here and elsewhere about Fiona Doyle and her statement that women have the right to walk down the street drunk or naked if they so desire. An aspiring rapist's wet dream!

Irish Salem: Fiona Doyle and George Hook

This type of demand for "Rights" is well expressed in the old doggerel

Here lies the body of Michael Jay
Who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, quite right as he sped along,
But he's just as dead as if he were wrong.

The stupidity is linked to the fact that feminists believe they can get away with publishing ANY kind of rubbish. They no longer have to exercise their brain cells - and boy does it show!

The following are a couple of comments and my reply

Originally Posted by 'Who is John Galt?' 

 Just as robbers have no right to steal the Patek Philippe I leave on the passenger seat of my unlocked car.

Of course men do not have the right to rape any woman.

The cops might take a different view of my common sense however.

Reply by 'tokkie' to 'Who is John Galt'

Rape and theft are gulfs apart in terms of crime.  So too are the motivations, reasons and logic of the perpetrators behind either crime.   

Comparing them is a bit weird.  Dark too.

My Reply (Kilbarry1) to 'tokkie'

OK. Take the case of a man who insists on walking through a dangerous area of a city at night and does so regularly, sometimes while drunk as well. The police stop and question him a few times - because no outsider in his right senses should be there at night. The guy insists that he is doing nothing unlawful, he is entitled to walk the streets of his own city and the police are supposed to protect him. All of these are valid points - in the same way that Michael Jay had a valid point  (see post #5181). Eventually he is attacked and murdered.

What do you think the police will say among themselves about this guy?

Also his murderer will NOT get a reduced sentence by saying the guy was an idiot who had no business being in the area - but that does not change some basic facts. And one of the facts is that the murder victim WAS an idiot.

Women Can Shout Out Loud But It Takes A Man's Voice to Make Society Listen [4]

Originally Posted by 'talkingshop'

Yeah, I'm not disputing that he [George Hook] probably meant the right thing, but the way he said it was wrong. He suggested "some blame" might be attached to the girl, which could be interpreted as saying that the "blame" for the rape was somehow shared, and that the rapist therefore had less "blame" to carry because of the behavior of the girl. I don't think that is what he meant, but it could be interpreted that way.

Reply by 'Who is John Galt?'
A mistake that hardly warranted the explosion of indignation and cleaver-wielding that has ensued since.
George Hook has suffered more for that remark than the accused rapist.

My Reply to 'Who is John Galt?' and 'talkingshop'  

Yes indeed feminists can talk utter drivel and get away with it whereas if a 'reactionary' puts one foot wrong, he will be savagely criticised. I have written previously how Justine McCarthy got away with her hymn of praise to the Dominant White Male in the form of Fintan O'Toole (Sunday Times, 15 October). I will just repeat a short extract from post #5181

It would be interesting to watch Irish feminists reaction if Breda O'Brien wrote a similar adoring tribute to the Dominant White Male - with David Quinn as the object of her affections!.....

And again
.....Now I do understand that the above is part of a convoluted argument about Victimhood and Oppression. Justine McCarthy did NOT intend to depict herself as a helpless simpering female who is writing a hymn of praise to the dominant male sex .  HOWEVER it could certainly be interpreted that way and McCarthy COULD conceivable have her career destroyed by fellow FemiNazis. So why is she allowed to get away with it?

There is also the following in the same article by Justine McCarthy:
"Twelve years ago, I summoned the courage to write about how Brendan Comiskey, a former Bishop of Ferns, had threatened to rape me in the course of an interview conducted in his house when he was drunk and I was frightened. The next morning, a priest in a Dublin parish denounced me from the pulpit at Sunday mass. I have run scared from discussing the incident in public ever since. Job done. Woman silenced."

So she was silenced by a belt from the crozier. But hold on - a PRIEST does not have a crozier. Was he even a Parish Priest or just the local curate??

So what is the female equivalent of WIMP and why have Justine's feminist colleagues not criticised her for her cowardice?

Women Can Shout Out Loud But It Takes A Man's Voice to Make Society Listen [5]

Extracted from a post by 'EPIC SUCCESS'
Hook is a drooling simpleton ......
 a idiot like George who adjusts his accent for British RP (received pronunciation) speakers, who makes a fool of himself over his obsession with Pamela Anderson, who likes to pontificate, who has a very obvious belief in a class system and sneers at the working class, who works for filth like Denis O'Brien,  
........... He has and always will be, radio text bait and certainly not a 'broadcaster' or 'journalist' in the traditional sense of the word.

My Reply to 'EPIC SUCESS'

Any comment on Justine McCarthy's statement about Bishop Brendan Comiskey in the Sunday Times 2 days ago? It is part of an article whose subtitle is "Women Can Shout Out Loud But It Takes A Man's Voice to Make Society Listen" [see post nos 5181 and 5232]

"Twelve years ago, I summoned the courage to write about how Brendan Comiskey, a former Bishop of Ferns, had threatened to rape me in the course of an interview conducted in his house when he was drunk and I was frightened. The next morning, a priest in a Dublin parish denounced me from the pulpit at Sunday mass. I have run scared from discussing the incident in public ever since. Job done. Woman silenced."

"Job done. Woman silenced" because she was afraid of a belt of a priest's walking stick??

The above is part of McCarthy's  denunciation of Newstalk and hymn of praise to Dominant White Males (and specifically Fintan O'Toole.) "Drooling simpleton" would be a mild description for Justine McCarthy since the description only targets her intellect and not her morals. Should The Sunday Times take action against her?

Kevin Myers, Vanessa Feltz and Anti-Semitism

[Spoiler Alert]. The recently widowed Mrs Cohen wants to put an ad in the paper to announce her husband's death. Since very short ads are free she proposes the text "Maurice Cohen dead". The editor informs her she can get up to 6 words for free so she adds "Volvo for sale".

And Vanessa Feltz - who denounced Kevin Myers for peddling anti-Jewish stereotypes - thinks this is a great joke and indeed helps to tell it!

Extract from discussion on Politics.ie website regarding Kevin Myers Kills His Own Career

Comment by Tommy12345 on 19 August 2017

He most certainly did not plead guilty to being anti-Semitic, which was the substantive charge. He merely (and wrongly, in my view) expressed contrition for having written something foolishly throwaway.

Reply by Niall78 to Tommy12345

An anti-Semitic foolish throwaway.
Or just anti-Semitic without his own spin.

Reply by Tommy12345

No more anti-Semitic than the joke below which Vanessa Feltz herself thought funny, and harmless, enough to help tell:   [See above video]

Reply by Kilbarry1 to Tommy12345

[Spoiler Alert]. The recently widowed Mrs Cohen wants to put an ad in the paper to announce her husband's death. Since very short ads are free she proposes the text "Maurice Cohen dead". The editor informs her she can get up to 6 words for free so she adds "Volvo for sale".

And Vanessa Feltz - who denounced Kevin Myers for peddling anti-Jewish stereotypes - thinks this is a great joke and indeed helps to tell it!

Reply by Tommy12345 toKilbarry1

Yep. What an utter hypocrite she is.

Reply by Deargoul to Tommy12345

I heard that as a Cavan joke (Ford Escort) some twenty five years ago.

She's up to the minute as ever.

Some More Comments about Vanessa Feltz

Originally Posted by DaveM

The common theme from those defending Myers is that they invariably seem to come from viewpoints which seek to justify and validate their own historical prejudices and discrimination against others, be that misogyny, homophobia or anti-Semitism.

Reply by Sister Mercedes 

And the common theme from those attacking him is they're dumb as a bag of hammers.

Vanessa Feltz (who I like) is a vastly overpaid presenter on a local radio station whose ratings have plunged and whose boss is deeply unhappy with. Sensing a pay cut or even a sacking on the imminent horizon, she spots an opportunity to portray herself as an innocent victim and bullet-proof herself from any adjustments to her cosy set-up ... who would dare sack her or cut her pay now. She's played you like a fiddler on the roof. [/quote]

My Reply to Sister Mercedes

Interesting idea. I might just drop my fast developing anti-Semitism and stick with the Misogony! 

Are There Very Few False Allegations of Rape and Child Abuse? [1]

Keir Starmer QC, UK  Director of Public Prosecutions (2008-13)

Colm O'Gorman, Executive Director of Amnesty International (Ireland)

Both Keir Starmer and Colm O'Gorman are dismissive of the idea that false allegations of rape or child sex abuse, constitute a significant problem. While Keith Starmer was head of the Crown Prosecution Service, the CPS produced a Report stating that they had only prosecuted 35 persons for making a false allegation during a 17 month  period in 2011- 2012 when they brought 5,651 prosecutions for rape and Mr Starmer stated that it is a "misplaced belief" that false accusations of rape are commonplace.

In then same vein Colm O'Gorman wrote in the Irish Times on 29 March 2006 that:
“In the past few months a number of commentators have suggested that grave injustice is being done to priests falsely accused of child sexual abuse. Such suggestions rightly concern fair minded people, but remarkably, no evidence of any kind has been presented to suggest that false allegations are being made or that the rights of those accused are being abused.”
At the time, Colm O'Gorman was head of the Child abuse victims organisation "One In Four" which he had founded. In February 2008 he became Executive Director of Amnesty International Ireland a post he still holds. Evidently Amnesty is in agreement with his views on the non-importance of false allegations!

NOTE: In the case of Nora Wall (no 5 below) she received a Certificate of Miscarriage of Justice from the Court of Criminal Appeal in December 2005 i.e. just 3 months before Colm O'Gorman's article. The two brothers who tried to extort money from  Father Michael Kennedy with false allegations  (no 3 below) were convicted in January 2006 i.e. TWO months before O'Gorman assured us that there was no evidence that such actions constituted a problem!

There was a discussion on this issue in the Politics.ie thread on George Hook and the following is an extract.

Post by "amsterdemmetje" dated  23 September 2017

...........  A report by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) examined rape allegations in England and Wales over a 17-month period between January 2011 and May 2012. It showed that in 35 cases authorities prosecuted a person for making a false allegation, while they brought 5,651 prosecutions for rape. Keir Starmer, the head of the CPS, said that the "mere fact that someone did not pursue a complaint or retracted it, is not of itself evidence that it was false" and that it is a "misplaced belief" that false accusations of rape are commonplace.

He added that the report also showed that a significant number of false allegations of rape (and domestic violence) "involved young, often vulnerable people. About half of the cases involved people aged 21 years old and under, and some involved people with mental health difficulties. In some cases, the person alleged to have made the false report had undoubtedly been the victim of some kind of offence, even if not the one that he or she had reported."

Reply to "amsterdemmetje" by Kilbarry1 dated  23 September 2017

False Allegations of Rape and Paedophilia (A)

Keir Starmer, the head of the CPS, said that the "mere fact that someone did not pursue a complaint or retracted it, is not of itself evidence that it was false".

It is ALSO the case that it is extremely difficult to PROVE that a woman(or man) has made a false allegation of rape where it is just one person's word against another's. I recall a number of prosecutions for false allegations in Ireland. Every one of them involve either an accuser who was incredibly stupid OR an accused person who was extremely lucky

.(1) The guy who accused Louis Walsh of assaulting him in the toilets of a night club. CCTV camera showed they were never in the Gents at the same time. All the imbecile had to do was to go into the Gents after Walsh - and it would have been impossible to PROVE that he was lying.

.(2) A woman had a dispute with her next door neighbours and she accused their teenage son of assaulting her daughter. This was an adult making allegations against an under-age person so the Gardaí dealt with it very seriously. If she had accused the boy's father instead she would have had a much better chance of staying out of jail

.(3) Two brothers who tried to blackmail a priest in Co Waterford by threatening to accuse him of child abuse unless he paid them money. He said he was going to the bank to get the money but returned with the Gardaí. The imbeciles then drove away at speed with the squad car I pursuit. All they had to do was (A) agree on the details of a story beforehand and (B) stand their ground when the Gardaí arrived and again it would have been difficult to PROVE they were lying

.(4) A Dublin publican banned a man for creating a disturbance at Christmas. The guy then put up posters at night accusing the publican of being a paedophile and kept replacing them. He wasn't caught by the Gardaí but by the publican and his sons who drove around at night until they caught him in the act. He was jailed.

(5) In the Nora Wall case, she was actually convicted and jailed. The two accusers would have collected a fortune in damages from the Sisters of Mercy but they were impatient to get their hands on  cash. So they gave an exclusive interview to the Daily Star that published their names for the first time and it soon became clear that both were SERIAL accusers. One of their former victims recognised one of their names as his own accuser and contacted Nora Wall's family

All of the above  involved unusual situations. IF a false accuser is NOT a complete moron OR the accused person is not very lucky, then the chances of the false accuser being brought to account are minimal.

False Allegations of Rape and Paedophilia (B)

I recall two other cases.

(6) A guy living in a hostel for the homeless accused a priest of sexually assaulting him many years previously when he was a child. Reading about it, I got the impression that the guy was a nutcase and I suspect that in normal circumstances the Gardai would have warned him about the consequences of making a false allegation and basically told him to get lost. HOWEVER the guy choose to go first to Colm O'Gorman's "One in Four" organisation and THEY took him to the Archbishop of Dublin. Since he had involved the elite of the land in his allegation, the Gardaí could not just throw him out with a warning so he was brought to court. As I recall his trial lasted the best part of 2 weeks and then he had an  unsuccessful appeal against conviction but a successful one to have his sentence reduced "on health grounds". It was probably his mental health the court had in mind!

(7) A case in Co Galway (there is a thread on it here) where two families were involved in an ugly land dispute and the young daughter of one accused the son of the other of sexually assaulting her. The jury convicted him - no forensic evidence, one person's word against another and an existing vicious dispute between the families. Many years later the daughter, now a young woman, testified that she had invented the allegation and the guy got a Certificate of Miscarriage of Justice from the Court of Criminal Appeal (like Nora Wall in fact).

Once again, unless the accuser is practically a certified idiot OR the accused is VERY lucky, it is practically impossible to PROVE that an allegation is false!

Reply by rob 23 September 2017

Galwayman exonerated on false rape claim

It was Michael Hannon
Two decades on, closure for the Connemara neighbour falsely convicted of child sex abuse

My Reply to rob

Yes this is the opening post on that 2009 thread

"Galwayman exonerated on false rape claim

Another miscarriage of justice hits the Gardai and the courts.

 In 1999 the then 10 year old Una Hardester accused Michael Hannon of sexually assaulting her. heading should read thus

 Hannon thankfully only received a 4 year suspended sentence however the trauma of the false accusation had a terrible effect on his health and he had to live with the stigma until earlier this year when Hardester now 22 yrs old found God and could no longer live with the false accusation."

1999 was an insane year - following the broadcast by RTE of Mary Raftery's 3-part  "States of Fear"  mockumentary series. Nora Wall was convicted a few weeks after the final programme in spite of clear evidence that the two accusers were lying. There had originally been two allegations of rape but the defence was able to prove that Wall's co-accused was 100 miles away on the date of the first allegation. Instead of concluding that the accusers were obvious liars, the jury acquitted the accused on the first charge but convicted them on the second charge which did not specify an exact date (or even year).

Nuns, brothers and priests were the MAIN targets of the hysteria but the jury in the Michael Hannon case were almost as crazy when they convicted him. I suspect that the  judge was not convinced - and this accounts for the suspended sentence handed down. (Nora Wall was sentenced to life imprisonment - the FIRST time in the history of the State that such a sentence was given for rape!)

False Allegations of Rape and Paedophilia (C)

"In some cases, the person alleged to have made the false report had undoubtedly been the victim of some kind of offence, even if not the one that he or she had reported." Keir Starmer

Yes indeed it's nice of the head of the Crown Prosecution Service to admit the above, but it is absolutely grotesque for him to use it as a kind of excuse for a false allegation. The following case made headlines in Ireland in 1997 and the Rape Crisis Centre even claimed that the woman's sentence was too long. It was 4 months for making false rape allegations against THREE  Irish soldiers.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-woman-jailed-in-cyprus-for-false-rape-complaint-1.95303
Irish woman jailed in Cyprus for false rape complaint

A 22-year-old Dublin woman's package holiday in Cyprus has ended with her being sent to prison for four months for making a false complaint to police that she was raped by three Irish soldiers...

The soldiers were staying at the same apartment as another man whom Ms Mangan had met the night before she reported the alleged rape. Police said they found contradictions in the complaint and Ms Mangan later admitted she made up the story because one of the men staying in the apartment photographed her while she slept nude.

At the hearing at Famagusta District Court in Nicosia, her lawyer said the false allegation was her way of taking revenge because she "felt demeaned" and that "she had been raped morally, if not bodily". Judge Antonis Liatsos said he had dealt with a number of cases recently of women tourists making false rape allegations...........

Photographing a woman who is lying drunk and naked on top of a bed is not nice and might even be an offence but it is not rape. The head of the Crown Prosecution Service in the UK seems to be suggesting that it is understandable for a woman to make a false allegation of rape because a man offended her in some OTHER way!

George Hook and That Old Time Religion

George Hook

[Or I could have entitled this "George Hook and the Four Cardinal Virtues"]

A few of my so-called friends have suggested to me that - while, they agree with some of my views [traitors!]- they feel I am being too extreme and alienating potential supporters. One even quoted to me the words of St Francis de Sales: "You can catch more flies with a spoonful of honey than with a hundred barrels of vinegar".  OK I looked up the quote and St. Francis de Sales was Bishop of Geneva from 1602 to his death in 1622 but was never able to reside there because the area was firmly under Calvinist control. I have no doubt that he was a very holy man but the "spoonful of honey" approach was the only possible one he could have adopted in the circumstances! And apparently he had some success.

So taking inspiration from the Saint, I will quote some of my more "moderate" comments from the Politics.ie discussion on George Hook.

The Meaning of the word "Responsible" [1]

Originally posted by owedtojoy
 22-year-old man raped in an alleyway after leaving Glasgow nightclub   The Independent 25/09/17

Was he a "slag"? A "slapper"? Was he drunk? Wear his jeans too tight? Shouldn't he stay out of alleyways?

 What did he do to get himself raped?

Reply by Pabilito to owedtojoy:
Well yes he put himself in a dangerous situation wandering alone around dark alleyways in the early hours. He certainly does bear some personal responsibility however that doesn’t detract any blame for the crime from the rapist.

I once worked for an American multinational and sometimes would take visiting engineers out for a meal and a few drinks in Dublin, one particular guy insisted on staying on late in Temple Bar when we all went home and I told him to be careful and gave him money for a Taxi. Following morning I learned that he’d been stabbed several times in a laneway behind Pearse Street. Fortunately he survived and when I visited him in hospital before I could say anything he said “I know, I know I was stupid .. I got drunk and went up the lane for a pee”.

Reply by Kilbarry1 - to owedtojoy and Pablito
Leaving the fanatical man-haters aside for a minute, SOME of these disagreements are about the meaning of words and in particular the word "responsibility":

(a) "Responsibility" can relate to the concept of Justice - and so we have criminal responsibility. A criminal is always fully responsible for the crime he or she commits - and this applies even if the victim has been careless e.g. wandering the streets late and drunk.

(b) The other meaning is more closely related to the virtue of Prudence. Every person has a duty (responsibility) to take reasonable  care of their own safety.

When I was at school, we were taught that the four cardinal virtues were Prudence, Justice, Fortitude (Courage) and Temperance. Our very orthodox teachers also told us there might appear to be contradictions between the four but "properly understood" the contradictions disappeared. One topic we discussed in religion class about 1965 was Prudence vs Fortitude e.g. if you were a soldier in wartime just what did "Prudence" mean. Of course we came to the conclusion that the virtue was still valid but it didn't mean the same kind of behaviour as in civilian life!

 As young teenagers, we had no great problem making that kind of distinction. I went to an all-male school but I'm sure that girls of the same age had the same ability to apply logical reasoning.  Nowadays many adults - especially women - seem unable to understand the concept of "responsibility" and the fact that it doesn't mean exactly the same thing in relation to Justice as it does in relation to Prudence. It is quite possible for a criminal to be 100% responsible for committing a crime AND for the victim to have facilitated the crime by stupid or careless behaviour!

The Meaning of the word "Responsible" [2]

Of course we came to the conclusion that the virtue was still valid but it didn't mean the same kind of behaviour as in civilian life!

And the reason for the "of course" was that it was a directed discussion with the adult teacher very much in charge. If the discussion had veered in the direction of "Prudence is meaningless in wartime" or "Prudence is only cowardice" then the adult would have stepped in to correct us. Nowadays it is the adults who are leading the hysterical mob against someone who probably has much the same values that we teenagers accepted in 1965.

I recall a comment by George Orwell when he was writing dismissively about Spiritualism - which was the New Age Philosophy of his own time. He wrote something to the effect that "It may well be true to say that organised  religion is a defence against superstition".  It is also a defence against the kind of hysteria directed against Kevin Myers and now George Hook. (Let's not forget that Kevin Myers was denounced as an anti-Semite and our Taoiseach and Tanaiste joined in the chorus of abuse.)

The Churches and Personal Responsibility

No doubt it's because I'm getting old but I am saddened by the failure of the Catholic Church - and especially our own Archbishop Diarmuid Martin - to say anything about the hysteria generated by the media against anyone they dislike. I have quoted the following in a previous post but it is worth repeating:

The following is the beginning of an article by Church of Ireland Archbishop (and Primate) Richard Clarke in Irish Times on 12 September. In the PRINT version it is headed "Defensive Rage of Social Media is Horrifying" with sub-heading  "Reasoned persuasion has been replaced by the hasty production of battle-lines"

"It is a truism that we are living in a culture of adversarial anger. We most readily discover our identity not by establishing what we are, but in finding and vilifying those who are against us. A cursory engagement with social media will horrify most of us. It reveals a pervasive if anonymised defensive rage. It is an inchoate anger that can also present itself – even more dangerously – in the casual savage violence visible throughout our island.

"In an apparent corollary, civic discourse (and not merely within political life) is likewise being steadily degraded as a stark binary pose on all issues becomes the predominant public mindset – no reasoned discussion, simply some new scheme presented with a minimum of nuance and a surfeit of self-righteous assertiveness

"The routes of reasoned persuasion have been replaced by the hasty production of battle-lines. In the midst of this is it not sensible to suggest that more wholesome conversations are needed in our public discourse? In particular, we surely need to consider together not simply the latest momentary squabble but far deeper matters. .......

 [It seems to me that the remainder of the article is a bit disconnected from this beginning. Did the Archbishop do a last minute revision in order to take on board the hysteria surrounding George Hook -including the hysteria propagated by Fintan O'Toole?]

Has any Catholic Bishop said anything as powerful as that? I do understand that Catholic clergy feel they cannot speak out on this sort of issue without exposing themselves to the same torrent of rage that was directed at George Hook. BUT there is one exception -our own beloved Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin. Archbishop Diarmuid is a hero to secular liberals like Fintan O'Toole. It would be safe for him to speak out and condemn the hate-filled ranting. So why doesn't he do so. Maybe it's BECAUSE he is a hero to secular liberals (like Fintan O'Toole) - and wants to ensure that things stay that way?

Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan and Former FG Chair Phil Hogan Vs George Hook and Nora Wall

Minister for Justice and Equality Charlie Flanagan

Former Chairman of Fine Gael Phil Hogan (now EU Commissioner for Agriculture)

FINAL (?) SUMMARY: Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan, Nora Wall and George Hook [1]

Is this thread [on Politics.ie] coming to an end? Rather than let it go quietly into the night let's try for a final summary. My own summary relates to

(1) Minister for Justice and Equality  Charlie Flanagan
(2) Feminist activist Fiona Doyle AND
(3) Fintan O'Toole

all of whom have condemned George Hook and ALL of whom have made far more outrageous statements in the past and got away scot-free. I have recently referred to Fiona Doyle and Fintan O'Toole but my several comments on our beloved Minister for Justice are about 3,000 posts ago. However I have summarised them in three articles on my blog and here is the first article

For convenience I am including a passage from the above-mentioned article. I am quoting our current Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan speaking in the Dail on 8 July 2009 during the debate on the Institutional Abuse Bill. At the time Charlie Flanagan was an ordinary Fine Gael TD but subsequently became Minister for Children(!) and then Foreign Affairs before receiving the Justice and Equality portfolio.

........."While I do not have time to speak in detail about the Louise O’Keeffe case, I wish to speak about another woman, namely, Nora Wall. Nora Wall has hardly been mentioned in the debate on the Ryan report. She became something of a heroine for those who mistrust the Irish courts when her conviction for rape was overturned in 1999. Since her conviction was overturned, she has been portrayed as an heroic martyr in many quarters with references to witch hunts and witch trials abounding. Six weeks ago, the columnist Kevin Myers wrote in a national newspaper:

 'The liberal-left lynch mob that went after poor Nora Wall a decade ago was prepared to destroy her life on the basis of lies.'

 "Mr. Myers would do well to read the description of “poor Nora Wall” in the Ryan report. Nora Wall does not deserve the plaudits that have been directed her way since her conviction for rape was overturned. While her case may have collapsed, the Ryan report reveals graphically that Nora Wall was no saint. She exposed the children in her care to unacceptable risks by allowing male outsiders to stay overnight at the Cappoquin care centre which was in her charge. She entertained past pupils and student priests in the home and allowed them to stay overnight. A witness stated that much drinking took place at these gatherings.

"There is more to this than meets the eye in respect of these social events. It has been suggested that there were frequent visits to the Cappoquin home by some clergy from Mount Melleray Abbey. Access to children may have been a key motivation for these visits. One must bear in mind that Mount Melleray was selected by the notorious paedophile, Fr. Brendan Smith, as a holiday destination or as a haven to which to escape when he was on the run from the authorities in Northern Ireland. This issue must be revisited" [My emphasis]

. 

FINAL (?) SUMMARY: Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan, Nora Wall and George Hook [2]

So Charlie Flanagan - as a TD in 2009 - repeated the kind of lie about Nora Wall, for which she had received a libel settlement from the Sunday World several years before. It is possible that Charlie Flanagan TD did not know about the libel case as it was ignored by almost all of the Irish media (Phoenix Magazine was the only exception I think). But he certainly did know that a TD cannot be sued for what he says in the Dail!

Subsequent to this atrocious allegation Charlie Flanagan became Minister for Children, Minister for Foreign Affairs and is now Minister for Justice and Equality. Was George Hook's offence worse than Charlie Flanagan's??

Reply To Me by'Owedtojoy'

Of course it was not worse.  But that does not put George Hook in the right. Setting up dozens of fake "What abouts" is a bizarre defence. Multiple wrongs do not make something right, though it might help with the context. Flanagan wrong does not equal Hook right.

I support investigation of all past paedophilia accusations, but I also think Hook's remarks were unacceptable for a professional broadcaster.

I am glad he has not been fired, and hope that when he returns to the airwaves, he is chastened and more balanced in his discourse on sensitive subjects.

My Reply to 'Owedtojoy' (regarding Phil Hogan)

I could indeed have set up dozens of "what-abouts" and they would not have been fake. The "context" that you mention is vital and not just a side issue as you seem to suggest. It is clear that people who are regarded as Politically Correct will be allowed to get away with any kind of lunatic lie whereas persons regarded as right-wing will be savagely criticised and hounded from their jobs.

In my Blog article and above I mentioned that Charlie Flanagan was the SECOND politician to slander Nora Wall. I didn't go into detail about the first because I am not aware that he denounced George Hook. However you can read all about him here - Irish Times article on 25 April 2002

"TD Cites Retired Official in Child Sex Abuse Allegations"

It was then Chairman of Fine Gael Phil Hogan TD and his allegations involved a paedophile ring, convicted murderer Malcolm McArthur, an unnamed senior official in Dept of Education as well as Nora Wall. Also children being tortured and forced to have sex with animals. Extremely lurid stuff - even more so than Charlie Flanagan in 2009 BUT Phil Hogan is not Minister for Justice and Equality today and I don't think he denounced George Hook. (Perhaps as European Commissioner for Agriculture he doesn't see any political advantage in so doing?)

Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan, Phil Hogan and Nora Wall

The allegations made by Charlie Flanagan and Phil Hogan are also discussed on the Nora Wall thread
on  Politics.ie

Incidentally Nora Wall successfully sued the Sunday World for similar atrocious allegations. She succeeded in her claim for an apology and damages in October 2002. This was 6 months AFTER Phil Hogan's Dail allegations.

However even if she had succeeded 6 months before, I don't suppose it would have made any difference. Phil Hogan knew he could not be sued for anything he said in the Dail!

Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan and Former FG Chair Phil Hogan
Well this thread seems to have reached a conclusion now and I have done a final (?) summary on my Blog. [I am referring to this article!]

Let us suppose that during the 1950s, these kind of obscene allegations had been directed by senior members of Fianna Fail against a Protestant or Jewish woman. We would be hearing about it still with journalists claiming that they revealed the truly fascistic character of "The Age of de Valera" (and of his friend John Charles McQuaid). The claims  were in fact made by members of Fine Gael in 2002 and 2009 - respectively
(a) the then Chairman of the Fine Gael party (and current EU Commissioner for Agriculture) AND
(b) the man who is currently Minister for Justice and Equality (!!)

The allegations have been ignored by the media - no calls for an investigation of the criminal accusations OR of the people who made them.

So does this tell us anything about the nature of Fine Gael today or of modern Ireland?